It arrived: Podcast launch day! I’m still learning how to get things done, and working on adding a page or widget or podcast player to the website so you can subscribe and listen directly from our home page. For now, though, click on over to Spotify here or Buzzsprout here
I’ve got a lot to learn about the art of podcasting, seamless editing, and proper interviewing, but all told I’m pretty happy with my first cast. There is a lot of room for improvement (like all art), so please leave feedback in the comments and/or let me know some questions you’d like to hear answered from future guests – and I’ve got some great artists lined up. Life is good. Please share, share, share!
If you can’t listen, or would like to read along (Skype recording quality is good, but not great), the transcript is below. Enjoy, and looking forward to hearing from you!
BodyPolitic, Ep 1: Christopher Roman, pt 1/2
“Worth”
CC: 00:00 Intro music and soundbites
CC: 00:36 Welcome to Body Politic, the podcast that explores the intersection between performing arts and political activism. I’m your host, Courtney Collado and this is episode one. My first guest is Christopher Roman and award winning performer and choreographer with over 30 years of experience as a professional dancer. He’s been a professional dancer since the age of 17, performing with companies such as Les Grands Ballets Canadiens, Miami City Ballet, Ballett Frankfurt, and spent over 20 years with The Forsythe Company, eventually serving as their Associate Artistic Director in Frankfurt, Germany. I was introduced to Christopher last summer when I took his class in Frankfurt, Germany as part of my MFA Studies at Hollins University. And I’m thrilled to have Christopher as my first guest, specifically for his work as artistic director with Dance ON, a dance company for dancers over the age of 40 based in Berlin. However, our discussion ranged far beyond that. So please take a listen to the first part of our conversation and I hope it inspires you to listen to the second.
CC: 01:41 Okay. We have Christopher Roman who is the former Associate Artistic Director from the William of Forsythe Company.
CR: 01:48 Hello everyone. Um, thank you for listening. Take you for taking the time to make space for anything I might have to say. I hope it’s either helpful or productive for you. So thank you.
CC: 02:00 So, Christopher, if you wouldn’t mind, start with telling us what you’re working on and what’s led you to this point.
CR: 02:05 Well, I finally, actually, I’m at home in Frankfurt, Germany. Um, I’m sort of just recollecting myself a bit, after a full year of changes and year of projects and uh, and trying to actually move forward with the many things that I find interesting and at 48 years old, um, to whittle things down to keep me in sort of a balance and keep me really moving forward in terms of how I better understand my field and how I better aid, um, the progression of my field. So to that end, I’ve been busy with finding out the legal and practical aspects of grounding a company called SALT company, S A L T. Salt is a multifaceted and complex kind of agency that I’m attempting to ground and hope to have some success so that I can aid the desires and passions and objectives and goals of other dancers in the field.
CR: 03:07 Actually I have two small symbols on either wrist which are the alchemic symbols for salt. And Salt has so many meanings in so many different cultures. Um, but what they all have in common is this idea of worth and value. Salt used to be an element that wasn’t easy to come by… Um, it had great value. It had great worth and it was kind of a currency. And too often lately I’ve just seen, since I am first and foremost a dancer, that dancers don’t seem to have a lot of worth in the grand scheme of things. It’s either the institution or artistic directors who – a lot of times they were former dancers – or the choreographer – also former dancers -they seem to have a lot of the power in this situation. They seem to be the ones calling the shots.
CR: 04:01 And time after time I’ve just seen dancers, um, be thrown away or they’re expendable or they focus on one thing for their whole life and then don’t necessarily know how they’re going to come out on the other side. And I feel like there’s not just a whole lot of support for it. For the dancer in the field. You have to be in a certain rarefied situation to be able to benefit. SALT was born out of the idea to give dancers more opportunities or possibilities. People can attempt to, to gather resources either to be in touch with me or, or people who I’m working with who can give you insight to where you would want to get a BA or an MFA based on your location based on your, um, accumulated experience or, um, where you would like to apply for jobs based on your niche, based on what it is you are expert in. I’m applying for money to make new creations as a choreographer, as if you’re a dancer who was trying to start making their way into the choreographic field or, um, connection for choreographers to find talented dancers that fit the description of what they’re, they’re looking for, um, for different projects. And also so that I can be collaborative with, uh, with people that, uh, I know are pushing the boundaries of, of how we see dancing in the field and, uh, how we can carry it forward and beyond.
CC: 05:33 That is such important work. A few of the things we talk about in the dance world are creating opportunities for dancers who don’t fit the mold of, of the traditional dancer in terms of age or body or skin color. And it is a challenge for all dancers past a certain age or who don’t fit into that expectation to find work or to find funding, especially in America. It’s really hard to make a living as a dancer. So… will SALT be global?
CR: 06:05 Well, I hope to, I mean I’m here, based in Europe. I am American. I have my hands to some extent in both pots on either side of the pond. Um, and I hope to utilize the expansiveness of my, my network, but also, you know, through the interests and the curation of Hollins and how I transfer that in the MFA study program here in Europe too, to be inclusive and really be able to expose the different perspectives worldwide.
CC: 06:37 And is there a website yet or will there be, where people can find you?
CR: 06:41 oh, it costs so much money. Do you know it’s really. I feel like because I’ve had the experiences that I’ve had and I’ve had a very supportive family, I feel very privileged to be able to even consider something like this. Um, but that privilege does come from, uh, you know, I, I don’t, let’s say I don’t take it for granted the idea of privilege and I have worked my ass off to kind of get to the point that I’m at and, and chomping at every bit to try and gain or garner support and, and it’s not easy. It’s really not easy. Um, but, uh, I’m paying for lawyer fees and tax attorney fees and just trying to, uh, make sure that SALT company is not taking costs to 300 euros and then it’s 4,000 euros for the website at least preliminarily and all this money. And I’ve got to make it first to be able to pay for it and everything’s out of pocket to start something like this, um, from the beginning. And, uh, I wish it could happen overnight, but it’s going to take some time and I have to be patient, um, so that I can do it in the best way possible.
CC: 07:52 Right. And I’m sure as our grandmothers always say, good things take time. Yeah. Um, and I, I owned a business a few years ago and it was such a drain and every little every penny is accounted for before it’s even made. So I know that’s a challenge and that’s a challenge facing all dancers. I think one thing that struck me about working with you last summer was that you are still so connected to the plight of the average dancer, even though you’re *Christopher Roman* and you’ve had this illustrious career and amazing training and all these opportunities, you still experience the same anxieties and challenges that every dancer faces.
CR: 08:30 But it’s subjective, isn’t it? You know, I am Christopher Roman and you are Courtney Collado. I don’t feel like I’m any different. I just have an accumulation of experience at 48 years old. I’ve been a professional since I was 17. I have almost 32 years doing this professionally. But, uh, I feel doing this [SALT co], I start from zero again because the idea, to be clear, I have to gain the trust and support of people and institutions and find sponsors and backers. And right now it’s just me. I would like to have a team of at least three more people to take care of production and, and applications and actually also hear the sound of somebody else’s voice in my own. Um, I am only as good as my experiences and I would really like to relate and collaborate with people who have other experiences to bring myself and projects and the field further.
CR: 09:27 So you know, it, it is all relative because I am not an Anne Teresa de Keersmaeker or a Twyla Tharp or a Baryshnikov or a William Forsythe. Those people have real cache where they can pick up the phone and basically, I wouldn’t say carte blanche, I wouldn’t be that, um, forward and saying they can have anything they want, but they definitely have power and influence to be able to get things a little bit larger and more expedited than I certainly have. And I do believe that it’s because I am quote unquote just a] dancer. Um, I have had accumulated experiences as an administrator and an organizer as well as a curator and an artistic director. But I am still first and foremost a dancer. And why am I “just a dancer” and why is “just a dancer” not enough? And why don’t we have the power to make decisions?
CR: 10:21 There was a horrible article when the dancers of the StaatsBallett Berlin kind of went in protest against the co-direction of the company that they were offering. And one of them was Sasha Waltz and she’s a super well-known contemporary choreographer based in Berlin. Um, and then there would be another, um, more ballet-centric, director and co-directing the company with her. And those dancers got frightened and they were like, “I’m not a contemporary dancer. I’m classically trained. And why is this happening and why is it happening without consultation?” And this article was written saying, ‘you guys are just lucky to have a job, be happy that you have something.’ And I’m not over exaggerating. And, and I was just gobsmacked at that was that was the case that these dancers didn’t have the right to open their mouth and say something constructive on their own behalf because they were a little bit fearful of the direction of the company that they signed on to.
CR: 11:24 And it just shows you the lack of, first of all, transparency in these institutions and the lack of value they have for dancers. And I just took that really to heart and it was in the midst of me being the Artistic Director of Dance ON ensemble, which is the dance company for dancers over 40, and this socio-political themed company established to discuss and present work regarding dance and age. Uh, and I thought, wow, I’m here in this place where I’m thought of as an experienced dancer and here are these younger dancers in a state theater being told to shut up and not been given voice, um, to be part of their own futures and to be part of the creative development of the institution that hired them. I just felt like they were not being considered as actual valuable parts of the legacy of the company as a whole.
CR: 12:23 They were just expendable bodies that should shut up and not not have a say. And that was just kind of haunting to read and then be in representation of this other factor where we had just got 1.5 million euros in support and I just thought, “something is off here.” And why did the federal government agreed to give 1.5 million years of support for older dancers? And then at the same time somebody in a major newspaper is telling dancers, in a state run theater, um, to ‘shut up and you’re lucky to have jobs.’ That was a real conflict for me.
CC: 13:06 Understandably. I think we see that a lot and I’ve, we’ve mentioned it a lot in discussions in our graduate studies, how even professional sports and in professional dance companies, ‘you should be happy to have a job making this money, just shut up and do your work.’ And, and the body of a dancer, the body of an athlete, is so objectified that that is a major conversation I think in dance right now. I’d love to hear your thoughts on that as well, these events that keep happening of dancers taking advantage of each other’s bodies, of directors taking advantage of other dancers and their bodies or their abilities and then yes, just casting them out when they’re done with them as if they are of no consequence. Right. Do you think there is a way to shift the paradigm of, of top down power so that dancers can be empowered to speak for themselves and make choices? And how would that look for a company? How does that happen?
CR: 14:06 It will only happen if it’s collective. Dancers are obedient and we’re trained to be obedient. And I have to say that I’m speaking for very different generation. Um, I think that the younger generation coming in, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 years old, they are, they have a lot more confidence and they know that they have the power to make more shifts and they have more tools at their disposal, social media being one of them, to be able to have voices. It’s just that even if they have all of that, they have to be consequent about how they use those things so that it’s sustainable so that it actually has a very clear mission statement so that it can garner the support of other generations. Because as I find out, I’m only as good as, as the support that I garner.
CR: 14:57 I am a gay man. I know that my rights won’t be won because only the gay community is active about making a change in our status in the world. It has to come from, uh, also support from the heterosexual world, too. I know that I’m not going to be able to take that, that fight over the top without the support of others outside of quote unquote gay community, for lack of a better term. So I believe that one group of people alone is not powerful enough to make the change. And going back to the idea of obedience, let’s say they’re a hundred dancers in a large company and only, maybe even 50% of the dancers all accept that they’re going to lead a, a drive to make changes against sexual misconduct against, these body politics, and boycott or make a true hard stand. If it’s only 50% it’s not going to work.
CR: 15:55 It means the other 50% is either somehow disinterested or feel too vulnerable and too scared that they’re going to lose their job in the midst of all of this, and it has to be 100%, it has to be 100% where 100% of the dancers walk out and say, no enough is enough that we won’t stand for this. And then people will take notice and then they’ll garner allies because that company that makes a lot of money, um, if, if they [the dancers] have all the power to say “no” and “enough is enough and we want to be part of the change, we want to be part of the decision making of a new direction in this company.” If it’s 100%, then they have real power.
CC: 16:45 Thank you for listening to body politic. Again, I’m your host Courtney Collado and please tune in next time to hear the second half of my conversation with Christopher Roman.
CR: 16:55 “I’m not pointing of the finger and saying you’re wrong or bad for having that kind of fear. “
CC: 17:01 We’ll be discussing different ways to make the art that matters to you, how to find funding and where to perform your work,
CR: 17:11 “search in your heart, what it is you need to say and find the resources to say it.”
CC: 17:17 A huge thank you to Christopher Roman to you, the listeners, to Hollins university and to sponsor Byron Green. Tune in next time for episode two of Body Politic, the intersection of performing arts and political activism. Music credits go to incompetech dot com and composer, Kevin McCleod.