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BodyPolitic Episode 3, the muse: Ashley McQueen, “Cojones”

Have you listened to Episode 3 yet? If not, listen on iTunes here, Spotify here, TuneIn here (or ask Alexa to “play BodyPolitic podcast on TuneIn), Google Play music here, or Buzzsprout here.

Smashworks Dance: For Which It Stands, 2019
Photo: Gerry Love

I’ve gotten behind since publishing episode 3. May is an insane time in both the mom world and the dance world, and also in the get-ready-to-go-back-to-grad-school-for-the-summer world. For Summer 2019 at Hollins, we’ve so far received no less than 23 articles to read for a dance history course and luckily only one other – but very very heady – radical feminism book to read…although now I’m panicking and will be searching through my emails to make sure I didn’t miss any other required readings. And I’m simultaneously raising and nurturing my own tiny politcal artivist son who turned 7, had a spring dance recital, tested for two stripes in karate, and lost all of his scheduled school days off because of insane Midwestern winter. So, budgeting my time became a challenge. BUT that’s the point of this whole project – learning how to podcast, how to create and protect my time and space to get this done. Because this work, these artists, the message is important to me. I’m learning as I go…which I would never have done if I hadn’t forced myself to start this podcast by proposing it to the MFA department at Hollins for my independent study. So….thanks, student debt and competitive nature for getting me to publish podcasts without overthinking their imperfections!

Episode 3 is the episode I’d been waiting to record. Ashley McQueen, Artistic Director and founder of Smashworks Dance, lived a few doors down from me last summer at Hollins. I won’t disclose her age, but she has a mix of maturity and youthful vigor that she channeled to create an insanely stunning and powerful MFA thesis project. For background: in our MFA program we have to present both a written and perfomative thesis in our final year. As a second-year student, I’ll get to learn all about what that entails this summer.

Anyway – Ashley is what I envision when I say “artist/activist” or use the term “political artivism.” She has created a dance company that presents fearless, politically-charged work. I wanted to know how. HOW does she quiet the fear and negative thoughts that all performers experience and – literally – expose herself and her politics so fiercely?

Ashley McQueen: Refusing to Be Disposed, 2018 Hollins University
Photo: Orfeas Skutelis

As a fledgling activist myself, I struggle to hone my effort. I care about and am enraged by SO. MANY. political issues that I don’t yet know how to focus my efforts – both socially and artistically – so I figured that I’m probably not the only one who experiences this “paralysis by analysis.” The bottom line is, as Christopher Roman also said, to just…do the work. Find a space and start moving or creating and let it turn into something and then find or MAKE a space to share that with an audience. It doesn’t have to be a live audience in a proscenium setting. It doesn’t have to be live. But just pledge to yourself to make something and put it out there.

EFF the perfectionist in you – we all suck at things until…we don’t. But you won’t make a difference or stop sucking until you start acting.

Below is the transcript of “Cojones” (which Alexa bleeps if you ask her to play it on TuneIn), and more stunning images of Smashworks Dance at work.

For more information about the people and programs Ashley mentions, follow these links:

Smashworks Dance

RADfest

Southern Poverty Law Center

On One Condition at Dixon Place

Smashworks Dance: For Which it Stands, 2019
Photo: Carly Vanderheyden

CC:                                     00:36                   Welcome back to Body Politic, the podcast at the intersection of Performing Arts and political activism. I’m your host, Courtney Collado and this is episode three – a conversation with Ashley McQueen, New York City – based performer, choreographer and artistic director of Smashworks Dance. When I first thought of Body Politic the podcast, Ashley was the artist I had in mind to interview, so I’m so thrilled to have her on the show and without further ado, here she is. Enjoy.

CC:                                     01:07                   This is Body Politic and our guests on this episode is Ashley McQueen, Artistic Director of Smashworks Dance from New York City, originally from Alabama. And she is a true artist-activist. So I’d love just to let Ashley tell us a little bit about where she is right now, what she’s been doing this weekend at RAD Fest, which is pretty cool. And then, um, just kind of find out how she got the cojones to make the work that she does, essentially. So Ashley take it away.

AMcQ:                               01:43                   So I just spent the weekend re-presenting my thesis (or an excerpt from my thesis) um, at the Regional Alternative Dance Festival, “RAD Fest” in Kalamazoo. Um, and so, you know, I, I was trained in Alabama, bunhead, 20 years. You know, that was sort of my, my idea of what dance was. And it took, you know, it took many years of having this idea of what dance should be and then realizing it didn’t fit. Um, at least for me.

AMcQ:                               02:16                   It took starting Hollins, honestly, to really open my mind as to what dance can do for the community outside of just the proscenium setting. Um, and so, you know, as far as political work, I think all dance is political, we can’t really escape that. But for me at least, you know, I was in New York, I think it was my first summer of Hollins and I’d come home and I was asked to do this show called “On One Condition” and it was a “choreographic buffet.” So basically we could create whatever we wanted. They had six or seven choreographers and you just had to incorporate a toilet plunger. Um, so, you know, it was shortly after Trump’s presidential election. And, um, you know, we had this toilet plunger. I was like, “oh my God, what am I going to do?” And so I had this vision on the train of classical music or something and just Trump’s words, Trump’s voice overlaid and just…This plunger. And so, you know, this idea of this kind of dance satire was born from that. So I created this little five minute solo and I found such a power and such a control over something that I felt that I, you know, the world had lost control over.

For Which it Stands, Smashworks Dance 2019
Photo: Carly Vanderheyden

AMcQ:                               03:28                   So for me that was sort of my first taste of literal political dance. And I really had the time to experiment with what the possibilities were with that. So I took that piece, expanded it my second summer at Hollins, adding in projection and these different elements and turned it into an evening length political satire show which is where I really got to dive in and add in more research. And Hollins really gave me the tools to expand on that. And then, you know, a year later it’s thesis time. I, again, I was trained in ballet. I had this, this strength and this discipline that that gave me, but at the same time it made me feel almost kind of helpless sometimes or powerless…You know, you’re strong and you know it, but there’s still this, I just, I had a lot of fear just to put it that way. I had a lot of fear in being wrong or in, you know, doing something that wasn’t what was “supposed to be.” And so I really think that between Hollins, between this election, between these new experiences with satire, and also moving to New York at the same time and having a lot of, you know, new experiences with that, it really just, it pushed me and I was angry and I learned to harness my anger in a productive way. And so my thesis was a lot of research on politics of appearance, the waves of feminism, different feminist theories. And my mind was really opened to a lot of, to new ways that I could express myself and, you know, push boundaries.

AMcQ:                               05:11                   So, I dunno, that’s kind of, that was how my thesis was born from all these different little mini experiences. And I’m still, I’m still growing my, cojones, you know, it’s still, you, you re-perform these works, like this weekend I re-performed this work [at RAD fest] and it’s, you know, an entirely new audience and you’re topless and you’re giving this random stranger a 20-foot flag leash around your neck. And you know, it’s, it’s very vulnerable and it’s scary. But it’s also, it makes people really think, and it puts a whole new room of people in a situation where they have to, they’re, this is shoved in their face and they can’t ignore it and they can’t NOT talk about it. And so I think in the end, long essay short, that’s kind of our role: to put the audience in a place where they have to think and they have to acknowledge and they have to talk about it. I think that’s how we can incite some form of change in the world, you know? And we can’t control how people respond but we can just give them a platform to respond.

For Which it Stands, Ashley McQueen/Smashworks Dance 2019
Photo: Carly Vanderheyden

CC:                                     06:12                   I love the essay. I feel like for context, I should note that Ashley and I intersected at Hollins University in the Masters program there. She finished her third summer and final last year during my first, and her thesis was this really powerful solo of her -basically nude – in front of, not strangers, we all knew each other pretty well but then covering herself in red and blue paint, and the colors of the American flag take on a whole new meaning when it looks like smeared blood. Just …the imagery is so… Intoxicating, I guess, there’s no better word. It was jaw dropping and it definitely inspired a whole lot of conversation amongst the students in in good ways. And then I saw Ashley’s company, Smashworks, in St. Louis perform the full evening length work of For Which it Stands, which is also amazing. I know amazing is a really kind of hyperbolic word but…it’s powerful. The athleticism, the choreography, is so crisp and so clean yet seemingly so off-the-cuff at the same time. And it is satirical but powerful and it, I had so many emotions just watching your piece and I was just like, ‘how do you, how do you create such a fearless piece?’ Especially coming to the Midwest where the climate isn’t as friendly towards us “damn liberals” as, as it is towards people who either stay quiet and stay complacent or just kind of wait it out… Or actually full-on support the president or actions that he encourages. I mean, how does that feel to walk into a place where you know you’re a minority, one, as a female and then two, a brand-new audience full of strangers, completely – literally – exposing yourself physically but also then emotionally with this super politically-charged work. I mean, how do audiences receive that work?

AMcQ:                               07:55                   I guess every audience is different. I only, I only know what I experience, you know? During the performance I can feel their energy. I can feel when someone is, is pulling back. Especially like in the Saint Louis show, it was such an intimate performance space. And I mean, even, even the one at RAD Fest, you know, it’s a larger theater, but I still, it’s still kind of a black box-ish space. And I’m very, very much in tune with, I can kind of sense when people are nervous or really into it. And again, that’s just my, my perception of it. But, you know, at the time it feels, it’s like I don’t… I have this sense of “this is what I have to say and this is all I can give you.” You know? “I can’t make you happy. I can only share what I know and what I have to share.” Um, so, you know, it’s, it’s a very liberating experience. And then to be honest, like the next day, there’s always that kind of like remorse. Like, oh, not remorseful, but kind of like, “Whoa, I DID that.” You know, there’s no, there’s no going back. And it’s kind of like, wow, that was, you’re on this weird adrenaline high and then the next day it’s kind of like, well, you know, I don’t have regrets, but it’s, it is a little, it’s just a vulnerable experience. And every time I do that, that piece, I feel it, but then at the same time it’s like I wouldn’t do anything differently. I wouldn’t say anything else. So it’s just being, being in tune, and self-empowered and just holding to that no matter what doubts might creep in as it always does for us humans.

CC:                                     09:34                   Artists, in particular. So how do you find venues for this work? I mean, do you submit videos, are there discussions, or do you tend to find venues that are politically aligned with you? Or would it be interesting to you to find a venue or a town where you know there’d be pushback? Is that a goal of yours – are you kind of trying to broaden your base of support rather than educate or try to flip some people into seeing it from a different perspective? Which, I know, would be a wonderful goal, but I don’t know how open Americans are right now to that type of transition.

AMcQ:                               10:10                   Yeah. And I think that’s the real question. We’ve had a lot of talk about, you know, how can we share this work with, with a broader audience. You know, it’s one of those like “how much change can we make if we’re just saying the same message to people who agree with us,” you know? But then at the same time it’s like how would a very conservative Trump supporter… You know, them watching the show, it’s not going to change their mind. It’s most likely, again, assumptions here, most likely just going to piss them off. Right? So it is sort of that, there is that, that question I’m still grappling with that is “how can I reach another audience without alienating them from the beginning?” You know? And so we’ve, we’ve done, you know, like RAD Fest, we’ve applied to a couple of different festivals. Saint Louis, the venue that we performed at was, a venue I’d performed at before when I was living in the city. Um, and so I knew Tom Brady, the guy in charge and we knew the space and so it was one of those – we tried to try to reach out as much as we could and Tom did as well to just random people in the community trying to get a more, a more diverse audience experience. But then it’s, you know, you see the summary of what the work is and the people are going to flock to that if they pretty much, if they agree with it. So that’s, that’s definitely something I’m trying to figure out and trying to, trying to find an answer to.

CC:                                     11:30                   I mean, it’s a hard one to answer because you don’t know until you try. You know, the “Echo Chamber” is wonderful and supportive, but sometimes I feel like it lends us this false sense of support. I think that’s why Trump’s presidency was so, it was just crushing to a lot of people because we thought we’d made so much progress, right? Not just as Democrats or whatever, but as women and as humans. I thought we’d gotten a lot further. And then to realize that there is this volatile nature to, still, to like half of America is really terrifying. I’m just trying to imagine you going into like a, a theater in Mississippi or something and I have no idea what would happen.

AMcQ:                               12:15                   Yeah, exactly. And there’s really no way to know until we try. And then on that note, it’s really a matter of, you know, what, what organization, if we were to apply for these, you know, for other festivals, and they don’t, they don’t take us, you know, that’s clearly…if there were just hypothetically a more conservative festival and we wanted to get in there, we probably wouldn’t be accepted on the forefront just because of what the piece is. So it’s, yeah, it’s ‘how do you infiltrate these new communities and just let your voice be heard.’ I mean, I would love, I’m from Alabama. I would love to take this piece to Alabama and have it be seen. And you know, it’s knowing my former community, I know that, you know, a lot of the people who would enjoy the piece would ENJOY the piece.

AMcQ:                               13:03                   But then there’s a lot of other people from my past and from my world who would be extremely offended. And in the end it would just end up causing a lot of, you know, disconnect, which again, is the point: we want to talk about that disconnect. But I think every community is so different and there’s really no way to analyze how it would go until we just show up and have these conversations. I think in the end it’s all about just how can we make a space for these conversations and use dance as sort of that in-between space. Um, and I don’t know, that’s, that’s the question of the hour. Of the year.

CC:                                     13:43                   When I spoke to Christopher Roman, he kind of said the same thing. Like, “how do we make this space?” And his take away, the nut, was “just make the damn work.” Find a place to show it and just make it. If you make it, you’ll find a place to show it. Even if five people come, that’s still five more people than saw your work before. Are you thinking of putting this piece in particular on video, like on the internet or showcasing it that way or do you like to keep it live? I mean, live, there’s no way to compare the live experience of being in the room with you and your company during this piece. It was so charged. It’s so powerful. I just, I love it. I feel like the weirdest fan girl because it’s such a cool piece. I mean, are there other mediums you’re playing with to sort of reach a broader audience that can’t see you live?

AMcQ:                               14:32                   Yeah, we’re looking into starting a series called Smashing News, like a, a video series that hopefully we’re going to start playing with a little bit this month and kind of see if we can do like one a month. The initial idea was like a live feed, like just dialogue, and then going into a sort of movement research situation where we can just have, you know, dancers invite outside community members into a room and talk about, you know, one specific topic and then how can that manifest in sort of an improvisational space, you know, just to, to get the words into the body. How can we sort of use that as a tool? And then the end product would be, or I don’t want to say product, but the end, you know, sort of culminating event would be, you know, we would film the process and then edit it into like a minute and a half or two minute little video that we can share and just, just to sort of share the process or the dialogue, et cetera, et cetera. So this idea, it’s very much in, it’s in flux. Toying with it as a live feed, you know, that puts such an exorbitant amount of pressure on, you know, on the group, on the process… Um, so anyway, we’re trying to create some kind of a, a sharable, um, little summary of the work that we’re doing that’s outside of my thesis piece or For Which it Stands. I think with those works as much as I would love to, you know, have a, a compact little version of it that we can share with the world and people can get out and see it, you know, for free. And it’s not chained to the, the financial burden of taking the show on tour, but at the same time, I really think that I’m, I’m with you. I think that it’s just such a different experience live and to have the audience feed us as performers and for us to feed the audience in that, in that kind of aggressive way. I think that on film it’s lost. And so, especially for the thesis work, I think that needs to live in a real time space. Um, and I think that’s what’s so special about it. And what’s so special about, you know, live dance as an art form in general is just that it’s in that fleeting moment and it’s with the people who happen to be sitting there that day and that second, that minute and, you can’t re-create it. And so I think that’s, that’s the special thing that I want to try to keep intact, I guess.

CC:                                     17:03                   No, it is very special. And as the creator, it’s yours. I know once you perform it, it’s the audience’s as well, but it’s yours. I mean, did you intend to end up as, an activist this way – through your dance – or was it kind of an accidental intersection?

AMcQ:                               17:23                   I’ve always been a pretty passionate person. You know I’m from Alabama, my parents are not from there – Dad’s from Illinois and Mom’s from Memphis. My Dad got a job at the Southern Poverty Law Center and he told me, “I want, I want to move to Alabama” and we were living in a small town in Wisconsin at the time and he’s like, “I want you all to meet, I want to take you to a community that’s not just white people.” We were from, again, a REALLY small town and, you know, he’s like, “I want you to experience life. I want you to have these kinds of conversations and this is, you know, this is how I want you to grow up.”

AMcQ:                               18:03                   And so, I mean, I was really grateful that we moved and that I had these friendships with people of color and people of different backgrounds. And, um, so it was, you know, growing up in that way. And they were very…. We’d talk about abortion. We would talk about, you know, gay rights, all this was very much on the ballot politically. And I remember having fights at the lunch table about how gay people should be allowed to go to church. And, you know, I was like, ‘but why not?’ You know? I mean, I remember being in fourth grade and having these fights with random kids in class. And I always just felt very passionately like, “why? Why is it not equal?” You know? And I just didn’t understand. My parents and I would have conversations about this all the time.

AMcQ:                               18:46                   And so I think it just took me a long time to get out of the structure of what dance was and to really see that dance, in the real world, dance and activism. It’s all so linked. And when we take ourselves out of these little boxes, and technique, (and not that technique is bad,) but to take it out of this little box of what a dance “should” be and what a tendu “should look like.” How can we fuse? Because in the end, the people doing this, like, we are PEOPLE. The dancers doing this dance, we’re all humans with experiences and with backgrounds and with relationships. And, you know, it’s just so important that we try to find that, that link, you know, and to acknowledge that link between reality and performance.

AMcQ:                               19:27                   And, so I think in the end, I’ve, I’ve always been a very politically active performer. I just didn’t realize it until honestly a few years ago when Hollins Master’s program really gave me the tools and the open mind to see it in a new way. And then looking back on work I’ve done before, it’s like, ‘ooohhhh, you know, I see these little, these little things that peek out and you know, what I was going through at the time are these little political little bites of, of stuff that’s just infused within the choreography.” And it’s like I see it, I just didn’t know that it was happening at the time – I was just expressing myself, you know, making a dance you know, um, so it’s just, yeah. So, long story short, I think it’s, I think they’re very much linked,

CC:                                     20:12                   Inextricably linked. And your dad was an artist, too. I didn’t know that he worked for Southern Poverty Law Center. That’s, that makes so much more sense as to why you would follow this path. Also, what an awesome guy. He raised an awesome daughter.

AMcQ:                               20:26                   Yeah. I mean just, you know, may you rest in peace, Bob. Um, you know, he was a lot of the reason why, I mean obviously 50% of who I am but why I have “the balls.” I think he was, he was always just like, ‘just do it,’ you know, and he was a writer and a blacksmith and a, craftsman and a photographer; he taught me iMovie, taught me GarageBand, you know, I mean, he was just a really cool dude. Um, so I’m really, I’m grateful for him.

CC:                                     20:59                   I had a question come up…Oh! Talk to me about, um, Smashworks advocacy. I know you just launched that after this past summer and how is that going? Was that just kind of, again, the “Hollins Effect”, realizing how much we can actually do with our time? Or was it that you wanted to make more of a material difference as well as an artistic and expressive difference in your community?

AMcQ:                               21:26                   You know, honestly, it was a combo of both. And just luck. I met this, this woman Ana LeJava. She and I went to Birmingham southern together about seven or eight years ago. So we met in Alabama, she’s originally from Georgia, (the country) and came for school at Birmingham Southern and then stayed and worked in the UN for a while in New York. And so we reconnected, you know, seven years later and here we are. And she saw For Which it Stands when we premiered in Brooklyn last spring. So we’ve been trying to connect and then, you know, I’m away for two months for school. And so we finally got a meeting when I came back and she was like, ‘you know, I’ve been dying to start some kind of an advocacy branch linked to dance. Just I just haven’t had, I haven’t found the right company; I don’t want to start a dance company just to do this kind of work.’

AMcQ:                               22:15                   She’s like, ‘I’m really interested in the political activism.’ And, um, she’s like, you know, ‘I saw your company perform and it just seems like the perfect fit.’ And so, you know, we met a lot and I was like, this is great. You know, I came home from school and was like, I don’t have any of the tools, you know, it’s like, I know how to make dance, I know how to make political work, but you know, I don’t have a strictly political background. And so it was, it was just this sort of weird, serendipitous meeting. So we’re like, ‘let’s do it.’ So we’ve been launching Smashworks Advocacy and it’s, again, it’s still, we have all these plans and Ana and I are both very similar in that we have all these ideas and it’s like, oh, we got to hone it in and, you know, um, start small.

AMcQ:                               22:59                   But, so we’re, we’re launching and Smashing News is kind of just one little snippet of, um, of our goals for the year, but starting an education outreach program, as well as trying to link up with different community organizations in New York and how can we, you know, start these open dialogues? How can we volunteer our time, how can we teach workshops and empower young girls? Um, how can we, you know, come out and do a pop-up, site-specific performance? So it’s, again, we have a lot of, a lot of goals, and we’re just slowly but surely, you know, applying for grants, hopefully moving. Our goal is to move towards full nonprofit status within the next year and a half. Just with a lot of the grants, that’s, you know, number one priority is to have that full status. So, Ana been a huge asset in that way.

AMcQ:                               23:51                   We’ve also brought on Kiva Carmen Frank as an intern. She’s someone I met in Milwaukee. She’s, so, it’s just the youth. Oh my God, she’s the next generation, you know, she’s a freshman. And she was just, we’re both like, ‘oh my God, the children!’ Um, it’s so, it’s so liberating, so exciting.

CC:                                     24:09                   And the energy they have, they have so much more energy!

New Speaker:                  24:14                   She’s at, you know, a different march or something every day. I mean, she’s, so, I love that. But so we have this little team and you know, we’re slowly just building, um, all these ideas and just trying to link again, you know, from ‘how do we take the performance site and you know, this community action and like how do we build that bridge.’ And so that’s sort of where we are right now is building that bridge. I’m hopefully trying to make it make it happen and actually see real change or you know, have real interaction with the community outside of just like, “wow, great show.” You know, that’s kind of our goal.

CC:                                     24:51                   It’s a good one. I’m excited to see where that goes. I think it’s, we need more of that and that’s exactly what I think the next wave of dancers are going to be doing. Before I got to Hollins, I didn’t know what to expect, first of all, and I first just wanted my Masters so I could get back into the dance world. But then realizing how much work there is to do. And how much wrong there is to right. And I keep on thinking about what you said earlier: It all comes back to fear. And I don’t…the reason I started this podcast was, one, I’ve always wanted to, but I was too afraid to because I hate the way my voice sounds or I don’t think I have anything to say. But also there’re so many things that I care about and that I want to change, and that piss me off, and I have no idea where to start. So I thought this was one place to start. At least by talking to people who are, who’ve tried and who just stopped giving a shit and started putting their work out there because it has to be said or it has to be done. And we all have to make the change together as a community. So one by one, and you’re making a huge contribution in “dance-meets-advocacy-meets-political activism.” So I hope you recognize that. I know you’re just in your day-to-day doing your work, but what you’re doing is really, really important work and really important ART. And I hope you know that.

AMcQ:                               26:08                   Thank you. Thank you.

CC:                                     26:10                   Of course. And so my last question on like my predetermined bullet-point list was: words of wisdom for the fledgling or accidental activists like me who really wants to do something to make a difference? Anybody who might be listening, like how would you advise them on building a coalition or small team, or creating that safe space? Or just creating the safe space to perform the work that they know needs to be performed. How do you, how. What’s your HOW. Is there a “how?”

AMcQ:                               26:45                   Absolutely. I mean, there’s so many things, but in a nutshell, just educate yourself, you know, read, stay open, get feedback from opposite viewpoints, show your work. Like we showed a little excerpt to, you know, a dancer-who-shall-not-be-named’s husband, who is a Trump supporter. And, and like getting, getting his point of view of like, what are you seeing, you know, outside of just our little rose colored dance colored glasses, you know, how he, how can we get feedback. What are other people seeing? So just being educated and trying to see your work and see what you’re doing from all viewpoints. Don’t be afraid to take risk. In the end. It’s just go, you know, if you feel educated, that’s what I would say. Or at least like you feel that you’ve done the research, you’ve done the work, then give yourself the permission to take the risk.

AMcQ:                               27:37                   And just know that it takes a village, also. We can’t do everything by ourselves. So find that team that you feel comfortable with and you feel supported by. If you’re inspired by someone, you reach out to them, get their feedback, get their advice, have a collaboration, have a coffee. Um, you know, it’s, it’s so important to not feel alone in this kind of work, because it can drive you crazy I think if, if you feel alone in it . And, and just stay passionate. I think too, you know, if you lose the passion, just question WHY, you know, it’s, we all want to do this work because we feel passionate and just try to try to harness it. It can, it can beat you down. And this, you know, this kind of activist work, it can feel like you’re sinking in the sand, you know, sinking sand. Um, but just be, just stay passionate, and keep trying to reinvent and reignite the fire.

CC:                                     28:35                   Right. Cause we could do the same piece over and over, but it’s always different depending on the day, depending on the mood, depending on any number of things. It’s always a reinvention. Every single performance. That’s a good nugget. I’m going to steal that one. Wow. Well thank you so much Ashley. You’re, again, You’re freaking awesome. I love the work you’re doing. I can’t wait to see what you do in addition to like the amazing stuff you’ve already done. It’s just…you’re a very exciting artist to watch.

CC:                                     29:04                   Thank you for listening to BodyPolitic, the podcast at the intersection of performing arts and political activism. I’m your host, Courtney Collado. Please join us next time for episode four with Raymond Rodriguez, who is the head of the Studio Company and Trainee Program at the Joffrey Ballet. He has a lot to say about ageism in dance and he’s working his butt off to train the next generation of dancers to have and exercise their agency as individuals.

RR:                                     29:31                   To let them know that they do have a voice and we are all in this together. I tell them all the time, I’m learning from you as well. You’re learning from me and I’m learning from you.

CC:                                     29:44                   Thank you again to you, the listeners, to Ashley Mcqueen, to Hollins University, and to our sponsor Byron Green. Music credits go to incompetech.com and composer Kevin McCleod.

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The episode that named the puppy: BodyPolitic ep 2: Worth, pt 2. In which Christopher Roman mentions “body politics”

BTW – click the following to find and listen to the pod now on: iTunes, TuneIn (ask Alexa to “play the podcast Body Politic on TuneIn”), Google Play Music, Spotify, and Buzzsprout.

In the second half of my chat with Christopher Roman – that time he said “BODY POLITICS” and it all came together in my head – we got passionate about artmaking. How does one “bite the bullet” and just…make the work? The answer: you just do it. Whether you spend 40 years making work before finally making it to a large festival, or you just post regular videos to social media of you dancing around your kitchen table (check out @oneminuteofdanceaday on Instagram), just make the work. Don’t be afraid to lean on your network or fellow artists, curators, artmakers for support – emotional, artistic, or otherwise – and just do the damn work.

His website, as he mentioned, is under construction BUT you can watch a mesmerizing video of him dancing here on his website. In the meantime, if you would like to work with Christopher to help fund SALT and develop funding opportunities for dancemakers and performing artists, you may contact him directly at improtanz@mac.com .

Christopher mentions a lot of really cool artists and projects in this episode, so here are some links to click on (and please feel free to donate funds if you are able) as you listen (Google will translate for you):

Frankfurter Positsionen

Lia Rodriguez

Jonathan Burrows and Matteo Fargion

Deborah Hay

Tanz im August festival in Berlin

Thank you for listening! Please share with all the artists, dancers, and aspiring artivists you know. The only way to effect change is by working together.

Transcript: Ep 2, Worth, pt 2

Intro                                  00:00                   Intro

CC:                                     00:35                   Welcome to BodyPolitic, the podcast that explores the intersection between performing arts and political activism. I’m your host Courtney Collado and this is episode two, part two of my conversation with Christopher Roman. In the second part of our conversation, Christopher discusses more deeply the issues surrounding seeing bodies as currency and discusses in depth why some performing artists have fear about performing political art or expressing their opinions and how some dancers are contractually unable to become activists in their art. Lastly, Christopher offers some insight and suggestions about how to make the art that makes us move not just physically, but emotionally and as a community towards greater change. Beginning with a brief discussion of fear that performing artists experience when they consider pushing back against the paradigm that exists within performing arts is “Worth” part two; Episode two of BodyPolitic with my guest, Christopher Roman. Enjoy.

CR:                                     01:35                   I don’t begrudge those people who have fear. I’m not pointing of the finger and saying you’re wrong or bad for having that kind of fear at all. It’s just that there is still fear because the system and the institution still has power. The training of dancers, especially ballet dancers is this kind of obedience. There is always somebody in front of the room telling you “not good enough, not strong enough, not thin enough, not fast enough, not sharp enough.” There’s always somebody telling you you’re wrong. Always. And in that sense there there’s always insecurity and uh, first and foremost insecurity about whether you’re going to have a job next season or not. So if that plays a part in their decision making about how they can bring the company further in a mission to eradicate the ills of how ballet companies are run, I don’t know what, what can happen if it’s not 100% of the dancers unifying and saying “we stand 100% together. We’re not intimidated and we’re not afraid and you have to submit to our grievances, and what’s gone wrong here cumulatively over the last 20 years.”

CC:                                     02:45                   There’s a whole snowball of all these social issues that’ve pent up over the past few decades, right? Ballet Is full of powerful white males who’ve come up among the ranks and think that their artistry or talent is enough to get them off the hook.

CR:                                     02:59                   I, maybe I’m bucking the system against the patriarchy. Um, but I don’t find myself in positions where I’m going to be tested by the patriarchy in that sense. But at this point, I don’t care because enough is enough. There’s so much homophobia, so much abuse and sexual misconduct against women in the field that uh, uh, maybe it is, it’s just time to just start pushing back win or lose. It just doesn’t feel like much is progressing in that vein.

CC:                                     03:30                   …Disappointing doesn’t cover it. No, it’s abhorrent and it’s all too frequent. I think you’re right, the whole community, everyone, 100% has to push back and speak about it because, personally, I don’t think I know a single female or male individual who hasn’t dealt with sexual harassment or worse as, as a dancer… Or even non-dancers. There is this element of “it just happens.” So sort of like, you know, “be thankful you have a job. Just deal with it as part of being human.” But I think, as humans, we’re better than that.

CC:                                     04:02                   The purpose of of this podcast is to help artists figure out ways to mobilize together for issues that we are passionate about. And clearly you’re passionate about what you call the “body politic,” which I think is great way to explain it, because what does happen to our bodies as dancers and how do we educate audiences to not support ageism or sexism because the audiences will continue to go to the ballet and buy tickets as long as there are performances. And I think more than educating the dancers, it’s educating the audience, and then the global audience about what is and what is not okay. I mean money speaks…we’re way off topic at this point, but I like where we’re going,

CC:                                     04:40                   …so how do you think dancers could mobilize audiences to help us make this shift around the way we see bodies and objectify performers in general?

CR:                                     04:50                   Just make the work that speaks to them. You, you have to bite the bullet and make the hard work. I just saw last night – and here in Germany, I am once again privileged beyond belief – I was at the opening of a thing called the Frankfurter Positsionen and it really is an active sort of liberal democratic way of representing the ills of the world and representing them through fine arts, through dance, through music, and they commissioned works that are specific to, let’s say, injustices in the world or crises or the nationalist populist wave. For instance, last night I saw a piece, um, from Lia Rodriguez, which was astounding. It was unbelievable.

CR:                                     05:42                   There were nine Brazilians, mostly from the favelas, onstage in this hour and 15 minute long piece. It was this nonstop, gorgeous representation of who they are, where they come from, with glimpses into these images of colonialism, also representations of what it was in earlier times in Brazil and in South America, when people were kings and Queens and they had a royal representation. But it was just this richness of sadness, of slavery, of a feeling of despondence, of, a feeling of frustration and grief and all of it in an hour and 15 minutes. And there’s just one tableau morphing into another that just…knocked the wind out of me and THIS woman and THOSE dancers made this work and it impacted me and the audience so much that it propels you out of your seat to say: enough. Enough! I’m not going to represent the things that keep pushing these agendas of nationalism and populism forward, keep pushing the agendas of racism and xenophobia forward, and this anti-immigration sentiment forward. I’m not going to be part of it anymore and I’m going to do whatever I can through my art making, through my alliances, to push that forward.

CR:                                     07:06                   And that’s what art is. There’s a direct and clear, gorgeous, majestic, awe-striking representation of, of life to be transmitted to an audience, to then provoke action, thought, and a drive toward change, a drive toward understanding and a drive toward the common understanding of what the human condition is. Search in your heart what it is you need to say and find the resources to say it. I know that Lia Rodriguez didn’t have a whole lot of support in her entire career. It’s only now that she’s gaining prominence and she’s 63 years old and she finally garnered a ton of support for this, this piece that I saw last night. But she was dedicated and she did it.

CC:                                     07:52                   Jonathan Burrows and Matteo Fargion – two heterosexual white guys, middle aged, balding, heterosexual, white guys – their whole career was based on the need to do what they were doing without a lot of resources. And over a bottle of wine and a kitchen table, they made most of their work. They weren’t immediately or necessarily embedded in this idea of funding-funding-funding and big spaces and large productions. They created a huge body of work in their kitchen because they didn’t have a whole lot of resources. And that’s something that’s also struck me that it doesn’t necessarily need to be institutional, that, that if, if you have the desire and need to do this work, you can find any way to do it. Everybody has a different way of doing things and every, and each person has different means with which to do it. It’s just that you have to seek out those means actively, with a clear vision and precision and rigor and go for it with blood, sweat and tears, period. That’s the only way things get done. I have run across in my career a lot of people who have just had things kind of given to them, which I um, I tend to resent. But I’ve tried to let go of that so that I don’t become bitter. But I’d say the large, large portion of anybody who has great success is because you worked for it. And that’s, that’s, that’s it.

CC:                                     09:17                   I think you’re absolutely right. And this can be our last question because I know you have a show to get to. I think the combination, at least here in America, um, because I didn’t grow up in Europe, of finding the nerve, I think, to make the work is a challenge and then: putting it out there. So I think that is what we need to encourage dancers to do. So if you could speak to that and in our last moments, like how could a dancer, or anybody, just create work? I mean we could create work in our kitchen. I love that idea. And then, where are the outlets that we go to to have this work shown? We have the Internet, I guess we could do youtube, we could mobilize on Instagram live. There are so many options, but for performers who tend to be, I think, like me, a big picture person where I see the final product before I get to the process, what do you think are some cement steps we can offer to our listeners who might want to just bite the bullet and create the work, find a new way of moving and a new way of communicating to educate a new audience to change this paradigm?

CR:                                     10:15                   Well, this is, this is something that I’m working on and I, it’s a really hard question to answer. It really is. I wish I could be super, super inspirational.

CC:                                     10:24                   Yes, it’s very broad.

CR:                                     10:25                   I mean, I had a an hour and a half a mentor session with the students last year from Hollins and because I am the curator and organizer there [in Europe] and part of the, um, the program, I read everybody’s feedbacks, but the one comment, several comments, were, you know, “Christopher seems so insecure with his place, in alignment with his relationship with William Forsythe and I’m so glad that I was never attached to a big legendary choreographer, um, that would stifle me and Christopher should really realize the things that he has and uh, be confident.” And that’s not at all what I felt like I was saying in that feedback round. I was just saying that because of this affiliation, it’s very difficult. And because of how prolific that affiliation was and the creations that we, that we made over 20 years, I find it hard to tap into where my voice is based on all that information to be able to then create something new.

CR:                                     11:28                   And that’s basically what I was saying – and then, in the world, go out and then not be immediately compared or criticized for being a Forsythe, let’s say, Apostle, and um, that’s already been done in the past. I struggle with that. It’s not that I’m not confident, but by the same token, perhaps those people were right with what they wrote. Maybe I just need to pull up my socks and go forward and just trust my instinct whether I’m going to be compared to that or not.

CR:                                     11:57                   So my point in expressing that or saying that is to say you just got to pull up your socks and use your resources. The things that I have gotten in my career have been because of hard work and because of my associations, I was lucky enough, through hard work to get a job at Pacific Northwest Ballet and then audition and get a job at Miami City Ballet and then audition and get a job at Les Grands Ballet Candadiens, and Pennsylvania Ballet, and then the Frankfurt Ballet, and then the Forsythe Company.

CR:                                     12:30                   Um, I worked hard to get to those points, but through those associations, through that background, I was able then to pitch my ideas to people that would listen, call up the person that I just did a production for and say, do you have studio space? And then be able to get a week or two for free because of my association and because I tried to stay as professional, and kind, and generous with my resources as possible and give back where I’ve gotten. I, I feel like everybody just needs to be kind to one another so that, that you can keep those relationships intact. So you can ask… I could ask Annemarie’s dance studio where I started my dancing for a studio for two weeks if I wanted to. It doesn’t matter where or from whom, but because I still have a relationship with her 35 years later, I could call her up and say, can I have the studio for three hours a day for me to make a piece?

CR:                                     13:33                   And I know she would say, yes. It’s just USE your surroundings, use your contacts, use, use what you have and use what you know and um, stop being fearful. I maybe used too many excuses to fall back on that disallow me from becoming a, uh, the kind of choreographer that at one point in my life I might’ve envisioned. And so, so for others to not make that mistake, believe in your possibilities, believe that maybe you might repeat the things that you did in association with someone else, but that’s okay. They were yours at one point. In terms of the Forsythe, um, “world,” um, Bill gave us all platform to make things with him and without that platform and without his dramaturgical, um, points of departure, I don’t believe that I would have come up with some of the things that were valuable to the processes without that.

CR:                                     14:32                   But if I reappropriate them, I have to know that I had a huge part in their making. And if I do reappropriate it, those things, to use them again, I need to repurpose them in a way that is 100% me and not 70% me and 30% Forsythe. So it’s about repurposing things too. So that’s all I can say, is be confident with your own voice. If you feel in your gut that you’re actually going to be crazy enough to jump into this field where there’s hardly any money, hardly any, – uh, well in the large sense of things because there is money. That’s another fallacy. – But um, you’ve got to know that you’re jumping in for all the right reasons because you’ve got a voice and it has to be heard. And so don’t deny that voice. Listen to it.

CR:                                     15:27                   Find the connections that you trust. Find the connections that you know will, will come through for you. Utilize this connections knowing that – no matter how big or small – ask for help from people who know better than you and how to apply for things, get on the Internet and see what’s available to you for help, sponsorship, for applying for money and uh, and go for it. That’s where I find myself right now, I’m doing those things. I’m asking for help at 48 years old. I am looking for the applications that pertain to the interests that I have right now and I am reaching out to anybody that I can, that I respect, trust and love, in the efforts toward my goals. Um, and this is important for me to say. It’s not just about my end game. It has always been about finding a, a situation where I can be proactive in my field.

CR:                                     16:23                   And once I establish that I will be as generous as I humanly can about giving back. My whole reason for grounding SALT is to share the privilege that I have had, the accumulation of, of experience that I have had to be able to give it back so that others can gain understanding, knowledge and experience toward their own greater experience. And uh, even with something like Hollins where it’s a three week opportunity for me to run a curation, I have called on and solicited the support of great friends, artists and colleagues to help illuminate that. And I have the luxury of a budget to be able to pay those people well, to be able to give the dancers in the, the program the greatest possible curation that I have, the ability in my hands to give through those associations. And so this is not necessarily just about me and what I want to gain and have my name on a plaque or the side of the building at some point. I want none of that. I want to be able to work together and collaborate and share what I have, uh, gained with others. And then also continue to collect more information and experience, um, for my own knowledge to then re-disseminate

CC:                                     17:46                   I love it. As a person, a human in general, and as a dancer you hopefully never stop learning. And especially for young dancers who might be listening: I had a conversation with April Daly who is principal at the Joffrey… You know April? But her point to our young dancers in a Q&A was just, don’t, don’t burn bridges. Just be kind because you never know who you’ll need or come back to in the future. The dance world is smaller than the size of a dime. And I’m running into dancers – after even taking 10 years off – that I trained with when I was 12 years old at the Colorado Ballet.

CR:                                     18:21                   The idea of burning bridges is a tricky, um, idea for me, especially when we’re talking about activism because someone is, maybe the bridge might not be burnt, but the person may be.

CR:                                     18:31                   You’ve got to stick to your guns. You do. You have to listen. You have to be, um, let’s say counseled with, um, colleagues, friends, peers, family. If there’s something really big that you feel like you need to be an advocate for or, um, or stand against. And I really feel when you make that commitment to do it, you’ve gotta be prepared to make some, let’s say enemies. But I, and I would just do it in the most loving and kind way to say that “I’m not doing this to be against you. I’m doing this to have better situations for everybody else.” Um, it’s, uh, those, those lines have to be clearer.

CR:                                     19:11                   And, uh, you cannot be an activist and stand for something without potentially alienating some people offending other people. Some of my relationships have not ended well. But I have tried my best to communicate with the words in my, at my disposal what, what is not okay in the situation and why it’s not okay and why and how it could be better. And if they don’t agree I need to press, I need to go on and I had to move on. I in some circumstances don’t believe I was treated fairly and the entire project, not because of my personal treatment, but the project then suffered. I let it be known in the most diplomatic and professional way possible, but we couldn’t see eye to eye and we couldn’t move forward. And I then had to make the decision to, to say goodbye. It’s hard to, especially when you invest so much of your time, energy, network, experience and love and creativity into a situation. And I in some cases and still recovering from some of those associations.

CR:                                     20:20                   And that’s the price you have to pay for really sticking to what’s important to you and be in representation of those things that you’re passionate about. You have to walk the walk…

CC:                                     20:30                   …and not be afraid of what you might lose…

CR:                                     20:33                   That’s right.

CC:                                     20:34                   …in favor of gaining or helping or aiding or spreading the message is more important.

CR:                                     20:38                   I’m not, you know, I am, I am human. There are things I still come up against where, um, “if I don’t take this job, I might not be able to pay my, my rent this month.” Um, uh, “I would really rather not do it.” You’ve got, you come up with those moral and ethical dilemmas in your career and your life and you’ve got to weigh out the pros and the cons of everything. And, uh, I can’t say that 100% of all my actions or decision making is, is, uh, a full representation of total idealistic, uh, thinking that I wish to represent. Uh, I wish I could be more that way. I’m making efforts to be that in my life. But, uh, sometimes I, I’ve got bills to pay,

CC:                                     21:22                   Right. But, at the end of the day. You’re making the work, right? You’re still taking your stand.

CR:                                     21:27                   I’m trying and I’m trying to create things that, um, allow others to make the work too so that we have more of symbiosis, we have more possibilities for one another to um, yeah, to, to be better, to be inclusive, to represent the art form at its best.

CC:                                     21:44                   You’re doing such important work and I’m so excited to see where SALT company goes. I can’t wait to see it launch.

CR:                                     21:50                   Let’s see. I’m crossing fingers but they’ll, it’ll be slow going. But project to project, every small project that I, I manage to get done hopefully is, uh, as another step in the right direction for the Illumination of SALT so that it can be a wider network of people being supported somehow if it, if any of your listeners have money to contribute to the new Deborah Hay production for her retrospective at Tanz im August in Berlin, give me a call. We’re still looking for money. (chuckles)

CC:                                     22:21                   I’ll put a link in the podcast notes for sure. So you can get in touch and donate generously to Christopher Roman and Deborah Hay. Thank you Christopher, so much. Do you have any closing notes you’d like to share with listeners?

CR:                                     22:34                   I, I just, I feel like we all need to come together. I feel like these days of being, um, ballet dancers versus a modern dancer or this versus that… Dance is dance is dance. And if you are truly invested in the field of dance and being a dancer, you want to put your nose in every kind of dance possible so that you can say that I’m an expert in the field of DANCE. And then that cross pollination, we get to know each other more and we get to know that we’re all the same and we get to know that we’re all in mutual need of support of one another and we get to know that all of the same crap that happens in a ballet company happens in a contemporary company happens in the freelance field. And if we are all coming together to fight against those things and in support of one another, it will be so much easier. I am working toward that in my own tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny speck of dust corner of the world. And I encourage everybody else to do the same. And uh, I, I want nothing more than everybody to have their passions realized through dance and bring people closer together through the art of dance and realize that we are all just…one.

CC:                                     23:55                   Thank you for listening to body politic again. I’m your host Courtney Cole Yaddo and please join me next time when I have Ashley Mcqueen Artistic Director of smash works dance based in New York City discussing her evening length work for which it stands.

AMQ:                                 24:09                   Um, you know, we had this toilet plunger like wouldn’t make it to do and you know, and so I had this vision on the train is, you know, classical music or something and just Trump’s words trumps boys overlaid and just this plunger.

CC:                                     24:21                   Ashley is part of the new generation of choreographers and dancers who are unapologetically political in their work. The first time I saw “For Which it Stands” in its entirety in St Louis, I was mesmerized and I couldn’t wait to have her on the podcast to discuss how she’s so clearly married her ideas of political activism, feminism, and dance and performing arts into a full evening work that touches everybody in some way.

AMQ:                                 24:45                   What dance can do for the community outside of just this proscenium setting, CC:        24:49    if you’re intrigued, join us for episode three a huge thank you to Christopher Roman, to you the listeners, to Hollins University, and sponsor Byron Green. Tune in next time to Body Politic, the intersection of performing arts and political activism. Music credits. Go to incompetech.com and composer Kevin McCleod.