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The dancer’s learning curve: Raymond Rodriguez on recognizing ageism in dance and educating next-gen dancers to be advocates for their own careers.

Raymond Rodriguez, Thesis Performance, Hollins University Theater 2018

It’s a funny thing: hitting mid-life and realizing your entire existence has been based upon being misled into believing you have to exist within externally-imposed limitations.

Find BodyPolitic Episode 4 with Raymond Rodriguez on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play Music, TuneIn, and Buzzsprout so you can listen along with the transcript below.

Too:

short/old/young/tall/fat/thin/slow/fast/curvy/flat/boyish/feminine/masculine

natual/fake/augmented/real/smart/dumb/poor/rich/successful/educated

lazy/motivated/quiet/loud/opinionated/active/pensive/loving/hateful

…the list goes on. I’ve been categorized as every single one of these items at some point (well, except too tall) and conditioned to believe them, no matter how diametric. I’m willing to bet you can identify with a few of them, too.

Knowing is half the battle, they say. Thanks to several wake-up calls, our generation is becoming the leaders and teachers that we needed when we were young. What may we have accomplished, not just as dancers, but as people, students, and professionals if we had been encouraged from a young age to advocate for ourselves, to employ agency instead of falling in line?

It’s a hard topic to tackle, because much of the performing arts depends on blind obedience: performers are at the whim of directors and choreographers, mere puppets for the master vision. But…what happens when artists are encouraged to make their own choices or offer input to the creative process?

Raymond Rodriguez, current Head of the Studio Company and Trainee program at the Joffrey Ballet in Chicago is asking and acting on these same questions every day as he works with his students and dancers. After 25 years with the Cleveland/San Jose Ballet, he was retired (notice I didn’t say he *chose* to retire) and moved into administrative roles within that company. Something didn’t feel right, he says, but as a dancer from the generation where we were told to “shut up and dance,” he did as he was asked (ordered?) to keep his job and stay active in the dance community.

Ramond Rodriguez in Baker’s Dozen. Cleveland/San Jose Ballet 2007
Photo Credit: Bob Shomler

At the Joffrey in Chicago, Raymond oversees the Studio Company and Trainee programs, mentors young dancers, and is involved with the Winning Works choreographer’s competition – CHOREOGRAPHERS, TAKE NOTE AND SUBMIT AN ENTRY!!!!

I could write pages and pages about our conversation; Raymond is the type of teacher and mentor I aspire to be for my students. He chose to never stop learning, to continue to push himself artistically and intellectually, not just for himself, but for his students: to teach the next generation of dancers and performing artists in a way that encourages them to develop a unique voice, to become mature individuals with a strong sense of self and ability. We could all use a Raymond in our corner.

Links/Resources from this episode:

Raymond Rodriguez

Cleveland/San Jose Ballet Retirement Tribute to Raymond Rodriguez

Winning Works Choreographers Competition Info/Entry

Joffrey Academy Studio Company

Joffrey Academy Trainee Program

CC:                                     00:35                   Welcome back to BodyPolitic, the podcast at the intersection of Performing Arts and political activism. I’m your host Courtney Collado and this is episode four. Raymond Rodriguez is joining me from Chicago where he is the head of Studio Company and Trainee Program at the Joffrey Ballet. Raymond is actively fighting ageism and commodification of dancers by training the next generation of dancers to go out and be active in the choices that are made for them in their careers and to become well rounded people.

CC:                                     01:06                   Raymond and I talked for a long time and he is so passionate about making sure these young dancers have all the tools they need to go out and be successful and healthy adult dancers. And this is the change that we need in the dance world. In the performing arts world, we need seasoned professionals who see the problems inherent in this top down power structure that we’ve built for ourselves so that the artists can flourish and grow and feel more secure in themselves as artists in their jobs and have long, healthy, astounding careers. So here’s Raymond answering all of my questions about what he does, how he does it, and how he became aware of the issue of ageism in the dance world.

CC:                                     01:52                   Welcome back to BodyPolitic. I have Raymond Rodriguez here this evening from Chicago. So Raymond, tell us a little bit about your background first and then we’ll talk about the work that you’re doing.

RR:                                     02:02                   Sure. Hello Courtney. Thank you for having me on the program tonight. Yes, my name is Raymond Rodriguez. I am the head of the studio company and Trainee Program at the Joffrey ballet here in Chicago. I was a Principal Dancer with the Cleveland/San Jose Ballet, for my whole career. Originally from New York City, trained at American Ballet Theater, then I moved on to Ballet Master, Managing Director, Associate Artistic Director of that company in San Jose before moving to Chicago and working with youth right now.

Raymond Rodriguez in The Nutcracker, Cleveland/San Jose Ballet 1992

CC:                                     02:35                   Well the weather’s a bit different, but the work sounds really awesome. (laughter) No more palm trees! So tell us about the work you’re doing with the youth. I know for clarity, I should mention that Raymond and I are acquainted through, again, Hollins University. Raymond’s doing really important work with the next generation of dancers and helping them avoid this sort of…argument over agency that we’re finding a lot with dancers who are maturing and possibly “maturing out” of dance companies at this point. So I would love to talk about the work he’s doing right now.

RR:                                     03:07                   Yes. So, my thesis while I was at Hollins was dealing with ageism within classical ballet. I felt that there was this frustrating ageist belief that mature dancers have little to no purpose in dance, but I feel like I have to close down those avenues to show my expression and rather open up new possibilities and dance through my work. With that being said, I have been working with young dancers between 17 to 22 years of age. Um, dancers that are on the cusp of becoming professional dancers. There they are dancers that come from all over the world to train at the Joffrey, in the program that I’m running, and I see dancers dealing with many, many issues today with anxiety, with stress.

RR:                                     03:56                   Where are they going? What are they going to do next if they don’t find a job after this training program? I’m seeing it more and more and I feel open lines of communication are the key. I’ve implemented a program, part of a class within my curriculum, every two weeks where we sit down just for one hour to talk and discuss different topics, different issues. How are they dealing with life, not just about dance, but as people – who they are as people. Which transfers to who they are as artists, which comes into the studio, which comes onto the stage. I feel that they are opening up and learning to communicate. As back in the day, when I was growing up as a student in ballet, we were told, you know, never to speak up. We just listen to the teacher and we do what we’re told. Now I feel that we need to open up and we need to communicate to succeed and move forward and have our art form grow.

RR:                                     04:52                   I feel that as a dancer I was forced to retire by my director. I was literally pushed out saying, you know, it’s time, but you can be a ballet master with the company. You know, I had no choice in the matter, so I thought, but realistically I felt I needed a job and I took the position as Ballet Master and I was happy in that role. But later on I started thinking about I still wanted to dance. I still wanted to get up on that stage and express myself in a different way. And that didn’t come about until after I was here at Joffrey and going to Hollins and really thinking about that and I was like, “no, why should I be forced out? Why should someone tell me that I cannot dance?” I should be able to make that decision and I still feel I am a dancer no matter how old I am and how old I will eventually be, that I will always be a dancer.

Raymond Rodriguez as Romeo, Cleveland/San Jose Ballet’s Romeo and Juliet

CC:                                     05:47                   Well, clearly, yes you are a dancer. Any of us who put our bodies on stage should be able to do that as long as we want to. And I know that’s been the norm, I mean for as long I can remember that, you know, once you hit 30 you’re the older dancer in Company and once you’re hitting 40 it’s time to start thinking about retiring. But then you see these performers in Europe, or even now in the States, more mature dancers and they bring so much more depth to a role or to the stage and just a vast body of experience that they bring into their storytelling as a performer too. I mean, obviously the young body is a beautiful thing to watch in motion, but I don’t, I don’t know. Dance is more than that. Right, though? It’s more than just a body moving.

RR:                                     06:27                   Right.

CC:                                     06:28                   I don’t explain it very well, but I, I’ve always tried to put it into those words. I teach my students that dance is non-verbal communication, which is also part of the problem : that we’re not taught to speak and stand up for ourselves. But then how, how would you explain dance in a non-ageist way?

RR:                                     06:41                   It’s just about expressing oneself. I always tell my students, tell a story in class. That’s my go to line all the time.

CC:                                     06:50                   Me, too.

RR:                                     06:50                   Tell a story, I don’t want to see just a leg out in space. I want that leg to be speaking to me, telling me a story. You know, it’s society also that, you know, glorifies the youth and the beauty. And I believe society is conditioned and you see it on TV, models, actors, you know, the older they get, they’re pushed out as well. But how do we change that? And that’s what you know, I’m looking at. And how we can do that. And I feel an older body, an older person, a mature person, has so much to say through their life experience.

CC:                                     07:27                   Agreed. 100%. Can you describe your thesis and describe the process of you arriving at that point and the decisions you made because it, it was beautiful visually and also emotionally heart wrenching, but also empowering all at the same time. I don’t know how to explain that with my words via a podcast so that the audience can understand.

RR:                                     07:49                   Well, thank you. Um, well, like I said, it all started from me just reflecting back on, um, myself being pushed out of the company that I was dancing with. I “retired” from, or I was pushed out let’s say, at the age of 45 from the stage as a Principal Dancer. I still felt I had much more to offer. So with my thesis it became a reflection of my narrative, really, in my life of dance. So it’s in my thesis, I started looking back from my youth where I developed and how I grew as an artist and felt I got to that point. So within my thesis performance, it was a reflection looking back into the past. But then it grew into who I am today, what I am today, what I look like today. I am still me. I am still Raymond. I am still a dancer.

Raymond Rodriguez, Thesis Performance, Hollins University Theater 2018

RR:                                     08:42                   No matter age, appearance, physicality. I’m arthritic now. But should that matter? No. It’s just going to be different. And who says that is not worthy? So my second part of my performance thesis was who I am today, what I am. And my third part of my piece is performance was this is who I am. I celebrate that. I move on, I continue. So it was a journey. It was sort of a narrative from the past to the present into the future.

CC:                                     09:13                   And you still got the chops, man. You are such a beautiful mover. I love to watch you dance.

RR:                                     09:18                   Thank you. Thank you.

RR:                                     09:19                   You’re welcome. Is there a possibility of you going back onto the stage? Are you working on that?

RR:                                     09:25                   Well, um, I haven’t performed since my thesis performance last summer. I’ve been diving back into my work at Joffrey, but since then I am directing a production of Coppelia that’s premiering in two weeks. And um, we’ve had a shortage of male dancers in our program due to the fact that they are getting employment with companies, which I’m thrilled about. It’s a good way to lose dancers. So I, you know, I’ve sent them on their way. They are flourishing, but it’s left me with less male dancers for this production. So it came down to who was going to dance the role of Doctor Coppelius, a character role within the ballet. And so I said, well, I started thinking about it, like, “why can’t I do it?” It’s a student production as you know, it’s um, the Studio Company, Trainees, Conservatory, and preprofessional levels within the academy performing this whole production. But I thought, you know, “all right, because of circumstances, I will do it.” I got a little pushback from the academy directors saying, ‘well, this is a student production, uh, you shouldn’t be performing in this. ‘ And I said, “well it wasn’t that I wanted to,” I wasn’t casting myself, but because of circumstances, which now has led into me rehearsing this role in front of my students and just a couple of days ago, uh, we had a run through of the second act and none of them had seen me in the, the role or in rehearsals, cause it’s only involving a few dancers and, but they were all in the room.

RR:                                     10:58                   I have to say, I think I surprised them. They know me as a teacher, as a mentor, as a coach, a director, but not as a performer. And when they, when we finished the run through, they just went into crazy applauding and screaming and they were so excited. And I know that they see me in a different light now, which it was interesting for me now they were seeing me as a performer, you know, like ‘you are incredible. You, you didn’t even look at yourself in the mirror once.’ Which made me laugh.

CC:                                     11:33                   That’s adorable.

RR:                                     11:33                   Right. I, but you know, I said, of course not. You know, when you engross yourself in a role, you are there, you are present. It’s not superficial. It was interesting for them to see me in that light and I see that they have a different kind of a respect for me now, which was again interesting that, you know, it took *that* for them to see me now…to see me differently. So it’s not a matter of my age and the teacher, it’s a performer. It’s a body performing, dancing, telling a story

CC:                                     12:06                   And all the camaraderie that comes with sharing that stage with them. I’m sure. So that can only help your mission with them probably. I’m sure they listen to you anyway and respect what you have to say.

RR:                                     12:16                   It’s yeah, it’s seeing it in action. And they said, oh this is going to be so much fun. We’re looking forward to this now. Thank you. This is great. So I’m happy for them and I’m also enjoying it as well.

CC:                                     12:32                   Well, they’re so fortunate to get to share a stage with a seasoned professional. Cause I know it’s a student performance.

RR:                                     12:37                   Right.

CC:                                     12:37                   And have many of them been on stage with the Joffrey before, or with professionals?

RR:                                     12:41                   Um, some of them have, within my studio company about 10 of them have.

CC:                                     12:46                   Is there anything that you think we should share with people listening? Because I think mostly we will have students and other performing artists listening, anything you’d like to share about ageism or the work that you plan to do or that you’d like to outline in the future as far as combating ageism and that lack of agency.

RR:                                     13:06                   Never be afraid to put yourself out there. If this is something that you love and want to continue to pursue and to still perform, no one should be able to tell you now. You cannot do that. Never be afraid to put yourself out there and continue to do what you love to do.

CC:                                     13:23                   Can you explain those two programs to me?

RR:                                     13:25                   Yes. We have the Trainee program at Joffrey ballet in Chicago, the official school of the Joffrey Ballet. Not to be confused with the Joffrey Ballet School in New York. Um, we are not affiliated with them. Um, so here in Chicago we have the trainee program and we have about 32 dancers in that program and it’s a full-day program. It’s a one to two year program depending on how they’re doing, from six days a week from 9:30 to five o’clock in the afternoon. And if they’re working with the company, a few dancers work with the company on major productions, um, they will continue on work until 6:30 at night.

RR:                                     14:06                   Our studio company is a level above the Trainee program. It’s roughly 10 to 12 dancers and it’s 100% full scholarship program. And again, they work with the trainees as well. Uh, but more of them work with the company on the big productions. Um, so, and that program is a one year program and like I said, these dancers are on the cusp of becoming professional dancers, they’re quite talented and beautiful dancers and beautiful people and um, but what’s next for them? You know, what happens after graduation? Where do they go? Many of them have been auditioning since January, up until today, still. I’m happy to say that many of them have found positions with professional companies around the country and in Europe. Um, I’ve had about six of them already leave the program early. Uh, one’s dancing with the West Australian Ballet, two with the Dresden Ballet in Germany, one with Oregon Ballet Theater and one with, um, Charlotte Ballet and many are going on to other companies as well.

RR:                                     15:06                   But for those that do not go on, what happens? And that’s where my heart sinks for them. As you know, they are super talented and especially our international students that we have. It’s hard for them to find a position in the United States. Many small companies will not get a visa for these dancers. A working visa. It’s very difficult. So I’ve had, you know, a lot of dancers coming to me and I see that they’re stressed out and they’re dealing with anxiety and um, some of them depression, you know, we talk constantly trying to help them through this. We have a relationship with the family institute here in Chicago that we can send our dances to talk with. As you know, in the sports world, you know, these athletes have life coaches and therapists working with them. In the dance world, we don’t have that.

RR:                                     15:56                   We don’t have those resources all the time. Um, so we’re trying to make those available and really being mentors to these young dancers. Um, some of them are quitting dancing because they can’t go on. They are going back to their home countries and going back to University, which is great as well. You know, it’s a different path. But um, it’s as you know, it’s, it’s very challenging and it’s a, a rough road to navigate through.

CC:                                     16:22                   I mean, that breaks my heart, but at the same time I, I went the university route, but I went to a conservatory, so it changed my life. And I, I almost wish I had taken a break from dancing earlier, so I would’ve been a more mature dancer when I went to conservatory. So I can only imagine that because of this hunger for a job and then the social pressure from their circle – because their social circle is the dancers that they live and breathe and eat and dance with all day – to be the dancer not getting a response or not getting a job. Do you think there’s anybody who is taking an opportunity just because it’s an opportunity, no matter the history of the company or how dancers are treated in that institution? Or is everyone kind of making very smart, well-thought-out choices?

RR:                                     17:07                   Well, I tell the dancers, you know, don’t just audition just for the sake of auditioning. Really investigate the company that you’re looking into. Learn about the company, learn about the director, learn about the dancers, the repertoire that you’ll be dancing. Learn about the city that you might be moving to, the culture in that country, maybe that you’re moving to. All of that is going to play within your happiness in your life, on how you are developing as an artist, and as a person. So don’t just go just because it’s an open audition. Really investigate where you’re going, so they’re taking ownership of that now.

CC:                                     17:41                   That’s so good to hear because I think of all the issues that we discuss – and we discussed earlier before we started recording – as dancers we’re taught to be obedient and everyone I’ve spoken to for this program and said the exact. same. thing: we’re taught to be obedient and follow the rules and not challenge the authority or question the choreographer. Some dancers I know who are Principal Dancers in companies feel emotionally victimized or physically victimized by being not forced, but…also forced to do or perform something that makes them uncomfortable without any thought of the dancer as an individual. So it’s just a body, just a meat sack in a leotard on stage, and we can kind of play “Puppet Master” with it. I love that the work you’re doing with your students is empowering them to make those choices and make educated choices. I mean, what else are you doing with them to sort of break this paradigm and shift shift the power structure ?

RR:                                     18:35                   Just let them know that they do have a voice and we are all in this together and I tell them all the time, I’m learning from you as well. You’re learning from me and I’m learning from you. It’s never too late to start learning or to continue learning. You know, I told them I went to grad school at age 56. I put myself in that situation. I put myself there because I wanted to. Stop being afraid to learn and you will keep growing. Don’t stay static.

CC:                                     19:07                   First of all, 56?! (laughs) I had no idea. And I read your bio a million times and no idea. Dang, Raymond. So what is their response when you bring this up with the students? Do they believe you? Are they like, ‘oh, I’m never going to get old,’ or are they taking heed and starting to kind of act more maturely in their decisions?

RR:                                     19:27                   I think they are listening and they are hearing and I have a few of them that are at that are enrolling in university now and they were like, ‘I see that, you know, it’s changing,’ and I’ve told them it’s changing. It’s – back in the day, you graduated from high school and got into a company. And dancers felt, ‘well if you went to college, then when you get out of university you are going to be too old to get into a company.’ I said, ‘that’s not the case.’ Many dancers that I know and continue now are going into university and getting more experience than who they are as people and working on on their craft before joining a company. I’ve seen many dancers, even here at Joffrey in the main company, hired at age 16, 17… they’re young. They’re not developed as people yet and they have a hard time fitting in with the rest of the company. You know, some can do it and some can’t. I do have a student of mine, um, who’s moving into Joffrey Ballet in the fall and he just turned 17 but he is so mature for his age. He’s well spoken, he’s well read, he visits museums. He, he’s into photography. He’s into now choreographing, into editing films.

RR:                                     20:39                   I mean this is what it’s about, right? We have to not just be narrow minded and stay at the ballet bar. We have to develop in other areas that will enhance our art form and who we are as people and these dancers are doing that. I really see that and I’m so, so proud of them.

CC:                                     20:56                   It’s a welcome change, and a welcome shift. Thinking, you know, we have the dancers like Alessandra Ferri, and Wendy Perron, and Gus Solomons Jr. and countless other dancers and choreographers who make waves just for being on stage past the age of 50. But they didn’t do it to get notoriety for their age. They did it because they had to. There’s nothing that satisfies that need like being on stage or just creating something, right? Like your student who is flexing his creative muscles in any way possible. It just makes you a more well rounded artist. Do you think that part of the problem in the way dancers are generally treated is because there’s that lack of maturity? Because for so long in the major companies, dancers tend to come in pretty young, so they haven’t been socialized in a way that teaches them the morals of an adult. So you have these “sexting” scandals or hateful speech that gets other younger dancers in trouble. I think someone got fired from Paris Opera Ballet couple of months ago for making homophobic slurs on the Internet. Do you think has something to do with it that just, immaturity?

RR:                                     21:57                   I think so, yes. Definitely. They’re not mature enough as people. And I have one of my students, and she is so dedicated, hardworking, there every day, cross training at the gym 5:30 in the morning, will go after work. And I had to sit her down and talk to her. I said, “you need to do other things. I feel like you’re just becoming obsessed with ballet and I want you to just not go to the gym. One day. I want you to go out with some friends and go shopping, go to a nice restaurant or then maybe go to the museum or the theater or an opera” or, and she was like, ‘really? But I just love ballet and I just, this is what I want to do.’ I said, yes. So I had to explain all this to her and she’s come back to me and she was like, you know, I, ‘I took a day with my mom and we went out and we went shopping. We had like a girl’s day out and I had so much fun. I haven’t done that in so long.’ So you know, it’s just reminding them that they have to bust out of that bubble and not just stay narrow minded so that they can develop as human beings to function properly in society.

CC:                                     23:05                   I was at a Q&A in December and I think the last question for all of us was, what is the one word of advice you would give? And mine was one thing I say to all my students when it comes close to YAGP time, or exams or or whatever. I’m like, “your value is not based upon the totality of your mistakes.” Like you are not the mistakes you’ve made, which I thought was really cool, and then….This beautiful dancer, Miguel (Blanco) from the Joffrey was like, ‘you guys need to remember to be kids. You’re dancing so much. Remember to also be a kid.’ And I was like, that’s the most poignant thing anybody could have said. But yes, if you don’t let yourself have that joy of being a person or a kid, I think yeah, you do make yourself vulnerable because you’re so…The blinders are on, I guess. Right?

RR:                                     23:46                   Right, right, right. And that’s my whole point: take the blinders off, expose yourself to many different things. Not just ballet or dance. Anything else that you do on the outside is only going to enhance your work as an artist.

CC:                                     24:00                   Absolutely. So you started having, was it weekly or biweekly meetings with your students?

RR:                                     24:05                   Biweekly.

CC:                                     24:06                   And when did you start that, after your thesis project? Or did you start that before you started thinking about all of these things in the dance world?

RR:                                     24:13                   Yeah, it was after my thesis project. So it started, uh, in this past September.

CC:                                     24:17                   And how is that going?

RR:                                     24:18                   Um, it’s wonderful. I think the dancers love it. I love it. It’s a chance for me to get to know them also and for them to get to know me a little bit more as well. And I’ve heard feedback from the artistic director of the company, other faculty members, that ‘wow, the students are really communicating, they’re really talking and taking ownership of their work.’ And I said “yes, they are!” It was nice to hear that, and that it’s being recognized.

CC:                                     24:46                   Validation!

RR:                                     24:47                   Yeah. It just like, you know, like, uh, that, um, one student that I was telling you that’s moving into Joffrey who just turned 17, we just had, um, it’s called Young Moves. And six of our students, they have a choreography class that they take and six of them choreographed on the fellow students. And, uh, we presented a performance, uh, last weekend, but they produced the whole show. And they were responsible for marketing it. They designed the poster, they filmed interviews and edited, a real introduction reel about the works. It was wonderful to see. They had to edit their music. They had…one of them made a film for his piece. So they’re really, really owning up to their work and taking ownership of it, which is really nice to see at such a young age.

RR:                                     25:35                   And that it’s not just everyone’s doing everything for them and they’re just doing steps right.

CC:                                     25:41                   They’re not showing up in costume as a body.

RR:                                     25:44                   Right. They’re creating, they had to decide what costumes to wear, and they had to deal with casting. And they’re running rehearsals. And, um, what happens when someone gets injured or someone’s not showing up, someone’s not uh, listening to the choreographer on what they want and they had to learn what it was like to stand in front of the studio and manage a studio of dancers, of artists. So it’s wonderful to see that learning process and see how they’re growing with it. I certainly wish I had that when I was growing up.

CC:                                     26:15                   I do, too! I think, I think people tried and looking back through my, in my head at projects we did in conservatory and in high school where we got a little bit of ownership and, and we got to find music. I know technology was different then too. It’s just that sounds like such an amazing opportunity. I wish I’d had that! I love that. So Raymond Rodriguez, you’re training the next generation of dancers to be self sufficient full, of agency, and take-no-bullshit.

RR:                                     26:40                   I’m certainly trying. Yeah.

CC:                                     26:43                   Um, I had a question for you that I just lost. Dang. And we’re going to hang up and I’m going to remember the thing I wanted to ask you. Okay. So before we go, you’ve clearly made huge strides from where you were three years ago to realizing you had an issue that you wanted to tackle with your work. And I know it’s still in the incubation period, sort of because of life, you have a full time job. Um, that’s what my question was. Yes, I remember now.

RR:                                     27:09                   Yes. Okay!

CC:                                     27:09                   Okay. Ah, this festival, the um,

RR:                                     27:13                   Winning Works?

CC:                                     27:14                   Yes. Thank you. Winning Works! And that is a festival, or – can I call it a festival? Or a competition?

RR:                                     27:20                   It’s a choreographer’s competition.

CC:                                     27:22                   So Winning Works is a choreographer’s competition that asks for entries mostly from minority choreographers, correct?

RR:                                     27:30                   That’s correct.

CC:                                     27:31                   Okay. And did you spearhead this, or…this is something you’re involved in though.

RR:                                     27:35                   Um, I am certainly involved in it. I did not spearhead it, this started before I was at Joffrey. Next year will be our, the 10th anniversary of Winning Works. And it’s a choreographer’s competition for, um, we call them ALAANA artists, which are African, LatinX, Asian, Arab, and Native American. Um, and it’s, uh, it’s to help recognize talented and emerging choreographers to give their unique perspective and ignite creativity, um, in new works for them and choreographing on Studio Company and Trainee dancers. Last year we had 144 applicants for choreographers are chosen out of all those applicants. Each choreographer comes to Chicago for two weeks, uh, each separately. And um, I make it like a real life experience for these dancers also, where they have to audition for the choreographer. All of them are in the studio with the choreographer for one whole day. And I make it the choreographers responsibility also as a learning tool for them to have to select dancers.

RR:                                     28:41                   I don’t want to be in the choreographer’s ear saying ‘you should use this one and that one, this is their strong point,’ because a choreographer has to go into a company at times and just select dancers. And the dancers also have to realize is that the, this is what it’s going to be like for them in a professional company. That they will be auditioning for choreographers that are coming into cast a work. And some of them don’t dance in the program at all if they’re not selected, which is really rough. It’s…I feel for them. But I, you know, I said this is what it’s really going to be like and I want you to learn to how to navigate through that. You can be an understudy then and it’s, that’s an education as well. But it’s heartbreaking when they’re not selected to perform. But I really, strongly, feel that’s what it’s like in the professional world and they have to learn that as well. And it’s one of the highlights of our program and the dancers love it also. That they’re working one on one with a choreographer creating new works. And it’s been wonderful to see these choreographers come in also and work with the dancers and give them agency into the work as well, and collaborate with them.

CC:                                     29:42                   I’m sure there’s just so much growth happening in the studio during that period.

RR:                                     29:46                   Yeah, I love that time of year. It’s started from like December through March, a new choreographer comes in and some of them are in three works. So they’re learning all this choreography. But then we still have to go back and rehearse the previous parts that have been choreographed a month earlier. So it really is a true training program for them to become the professional dancers that they want to be.

CC:                                     30:07                   Again, they’re so fortunate to have you. Do you have any last words of wisdom you’d like to share with anybody who may be listening, either young dancers or young/fledgling artist-activists who might end up like you or me one day, realizing that there’s something they want to say but they don’t know how to say it?

RR:                                     30:23                   All I can say is just keep doing it. If you love what you’re doing, you have to love what you’re doing. If you’re not loving it, why do it? But if you do, no one should stop you from doing what you love to do.

CC:                                     30:36                   Thank you so much to Raymond Rodriguez and thank you for listening to BodyPolitic, the podcast at the intersection of performing arts and political activism. Episode five is an interview with a family medicine doctor in Denver, Colorado, who also happens to perform abortion procedures.

Doc:                                   30:51                   Why me? Why are you talking to a physician who does abortions on the topic of “body politics?” That is the intersection of bodily autonomy, women’s rights and abortion. And you know, the, the big picture here is that abortion is a very important component of controlling people.

CC:                                     31:12                   It was cathartic and also eyeopening. You will be astounded at the facts that he throws out at us, at his personal stories of horror,

Doc:                                   31:23                   …The security concerns are pretty serious. It’s very real. A friend and colleague of mine named George Tiller was assassinated.

CC:                                     31:30                   …and triumph…

Doc:                                   31:32                   I might see 3 to 10 women in any given day who need me to terminate a pregnancy, and I’m, I’m honored to be able to help them out with an important part of their life.

CC:                                     31:42                   …being someone who provides what should be a procedure accessible to all women. Because if we don’t have choice, we don’t have power.

CC:                                     31:50                   Thank you to Raymond Rodriguez. Thank you to our sponsor, Byron Green. Thank you to Hollins University for “making” me make this podcast for my Independent Study. And thank you, the listeners, for continuing to support. Music is courtesy of incompetech.com and composer Kevin McCleod.

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BodyPolitic Episode 3, the muse: Ashley McQueen, “Cojones”

Have you listened to Episode 3 yet? If not, listen on iTunes here, Spotify here, TuneIn here (or ask Alexa to “play BodyPolitic podcast on TuneIn), Google Play music here, or Buzzsprout here.

Smashworks Dance: For Which It Stands, 2019
Photo: Gerry Love

I’ve gotten behind since publishing episode 3. May is an insane time in both the mom world and the dance world, and also in the get-ready-to-go-back-to-grad-school-for-the-summer world. For Summer 2019 at Hollins, we’ve so far received no less than 23 articles to read for a dance history course and luckily only one other – but very very heady – radical feminism book to read…although now I’m panicking and will be searching through my emails to make sure I didn’t miss any other required readings. And I’m simultaneously raising and nurturing my own tiny politcal artivist son who turned 7, had a spring dance recital, tested for two stripes in karate, and lost all of his scheduled school days off because of insane Midwestern winter. So, budgeting my time became a challenge. BUT that’s the point of this whole project – learning how to podcast, how to create and protect my time and space to get this done. Because this work, these artists, the message is important to me. I’m learning as I go…which I would never have done if I hadn’t forced myself to start this podcast by proposing it to the MFA department at Hollins for my independent study. So….thanks, student debt and competitive nature for getting me to publish podcasts without overthinking their imperfections!

Episode 3 is the episode I’d been waiting to record. Ashley McQueen, Artistic Director and founder of Smashworks Dance, lived a few doors down from me last summer at Hollins. I won’t disclose her age, but she has a mix of maturity and youthful vigor that she channeled to create an insanely stunning and powerful MFA thesis project. For background: in our MFA program we have to present both a written and perfomative thesis in our final year. As a second-year student, I’ll get to learn all about what that entails this summer.

Anyway – Ashley is what I envision when I say “artist/activist” or use the term “political artivism.” She has created a dance company that presents fearless, politically-charged work. I wanted to know how. HOW does she quiet the fear and negative thoughts that all performers experience and – literally – expose herself and her politics so fiercely?

Ashley McQueen: Refusing to Be Disposed, 2018 Hollins University
Photo: Orfeas Skutelis

As a fledgling activist myself, I struggle to hone my effort. I care about and am enraged by SO. MANY. political issues that I don’t yet know how to focus my efforts – both socially and artistically – so I figured that I’m probably not the only one who experiences this “paralysis by analysis.” The bottom line is, as Christopher Roman also said, to just…do the work. Find a space and start moving or creating and let it turn into something and then find or MAKE a space to share that with an audience. It doesn’t have to be a live audience in a proscenium setting. It doesn’t have to be live. But just pledge to yourself to make something and put it out there.

EFF the perfectionist in you – we all suck at things until…we don’t. But you won’t make a difference or stop sucking until you start acting.

Below is the transcript of “Cojones” (which Alexa bleeps if you ask her to play it on TuneIn), and more stunning images of Smashworks Dance at work.

For more information about the people and programs Ashley mentions, follow these links:

Smashworks Dance

RADfest

Southern Poverty Law Center

On One Condition at Dixon Place

Smashworks Dance: For Which it Stands, 2019
Photo: Carly Vanderheyden

CC:                                     00:36                   Welcome back to Body Politic, the podcast at the intersection of Performing Arts and political activism. I’m your host, Courtney Collado and this is episode three – a conversation with Ashley McQueen, New York City – based performer, choreographer and artistic director of Smashworks Dance. When I first thought of Body Politic the podcast, Ashley was the artist I had in mind to interview, so I’m so thrilled to have her on the show and without further ado, here she is. Enjoy.

CC:                                     01:07                   This is Body Politic and our guests on this episode is Ashley McQueen, Artistic Director of Smashworks Dance from New York City, originally from Alabama. And she is a true artist-activist. So I’d love just to let Ashley tell us a little bit about where she is right now, what she’s been doing this weekend at RAD Fest, which is pretty cool. And then, um, just kind of find out how she got the cojones to make the work that she does, essentially. So Ashley take it away.

AMcQ:                               01:43                   So I just spent the weekend re-presenting my thesis (or an excerpt from my thesis) um, at the Regional Alternative Dance Festival, “RAD Fest” in Kalamazoo. Um, and so, you know, I, I was trained in Alabama, bunhead, 20 years. You know, that was sort of my, my idea of what dance was. And it took, you know, it took many years of having this idea of what dance should be and then realizing it didn’t fit. Um, at least for me.

AMcQ:                               02:16                   It took starting Hollins, honestly, to really open my mind as to what dance can do for the community outside of just the proscenium setting. Um, and so, you know, as far as political work, I think all dance is political, we can’t really escape that. But for me at least, you know, I was in New York, I think it was my first summer of Hollins and I’d come home and I was asked to do this show called “On One Condition” and it was a “choreographic buffet.” So basically we could create whatever we wanted. They had six or seven choreographers and you just had to incorporate a toilet plunger. Um, so, you know, it was shortly after Trump’s presidential election. And, um, you know, we had this toilet plunger. I was like, “oh my God, what am I going to do?” And so I had this vision on the train of classical music or something and just Trump’s words, Trump’s voice overlaid and just…This plunger. And so, you know, this idea of this kind of dance satire was born from that. So I created this little five minute solo and I found such a power and such a control over something that I felt that I, you know, the world had lost control over.

For Which it Stands, Smashworks Dance 2019
Photo: Carly Vanderheyden

AMcQ:                               03:28                   So for me that was sort of my first taste of literal political dance. And I really had the time to experiment with what the possibilities were with that. So I took that piece, expanded it my second summer at Hollins, adding in projection and these different elements and turned it into an evening length political satire show which is where I really got to dive in and add in more research. And Hollins really gave me the tools to expand on that. And then, you know, a year later it’s thesis time. I, again, I was trained in ballet. I had this, this strength and this discipline that that gave me, but at the same time it made me feel almost kind of helpless sometimes or powerless…You know, you’re strong and you know it, but there’s still this, I just, I had a lot of fear just to put it that way. I had a lot of fear in being wrong or in, you know, doing something that wasn’t what was “supposed to be.” And so I really think that between Hollins, between this election, between these new experiences with satire, and also moving to New York at the same time and having a lot of, you know, new experiences with that, it really just, it pushed me and I was angry and I learned to harness my anger in a productive way. And so my thesis was a lot of research on politics of appearance, the waves of feminism, different feminist theories. And my mind was really opened to a lot of, to new ways that I could express myself and, you know, push boundaries.

AMcQ:                               05:11                   So, I dunno, that’s kind of, that was how my thesis was born from all these different little mini experiences. And I’m still, I’m still growing my, cojones, you know, it’s still, you, you re-perform these works, like this weekend I re-performed this work [at RAD fest] and it’s, you know, an entirely new audience and you’re topless and you’re giving this random stranger a 20-foot flag leash around your neck. And you know, it’s, it’s very vulnerable and it’s scary. But it’s also, it makes people really think, and it puts a whole new room of people in a situation where they have to, they’re, this is shoved in their face and they can’t ignore it and they can’t NOT talk about it. And so I think in the end, long essay short, that’s kind of our role: to put the audience in a place where they have to think and they have to acknowledge and they have to talk about it. I think that’s how we can incite some form of change in the world, you know? And we can’t control how people respond but we can just give them a platform to respond.

For Which it Stands, Ashley McQueen/Smashworks Dance 2019
Photo: Carly Vanderheyden

CC:                                     06:12                   I love the essay. I feel like for context, I should note that Ashley and I intersected at Hollins University in the Masters program there. She finished her third summer and final last year during my first, and her thesis was this really powerful solo of her -basically nude – in front of, not strangers, we all knew each other pretty well but then covering herself in red and blue paint, and the colors of the American flag take on a whole new meaning when it looks like smeared blood. Just …the imagery is so… Intoxicating, I guess, there’s no better word. It was jaw dropping and it definitely inspired a whole lot of conversation amongst the students in in good ways. And then I saw Ashley’s company, Smashworks, in St. Louis perform the full evening length work of For Which it Stands, which is also amazing. I know amazing is a really kind of hyperbolic word but…it’s powerful. The athleticism, the choreography, is so crisp and so clean yet seemingly so off-the-cuff at the same time. And it is satirical but powerful and it, I had so many emotions just watching your piece and I was just like, ‘how do you, how do you create such a fearless piece?’ Especially coming to the Midwest where the climate isn’t as friendly towards us “damn liberals” as, as it is towards people who either stay quiet and stay complacent or just kind of wait it out… Or actually full-on support the president or actions that he encourages. I mean, how does that feel to walk into a place where you know you’re a minority, one, as a female and then two, a brand-new audience full of strangers, completely – literally – exposing yourself physically but also then emotionally with this super politically-charged work. I mean, how do audiences receive that work?

AMcQ:                               07:55                   I guess every audience is different. I only, I only know what I experience, you know? During the performance I can feel their energy. I can feel when someone is, is pulling back. Especially like in the Saint Louis show, it was such an intimate performance space. And I mean, even, even the one at RAD Fest, you know, it’s a larger theater, but I still, it’s still kind of a black box-ish space. And I’m very, very much in tune with, I can kind of sense when people are nervous or really into it. And again, that’s just my, my perception of it. But, you know, at the time it feels, it’s like I don’t… I have this sense of “this is what I have to say and this is all I can give you.” You know? “I can’t make you happy. I can only share what I know and what I have to share.” Um, so, you know, it’s, it’s a very liberating experience. And then to be honest, like the next day, there’s always that kind of like remorse. Like, oh, not remorseful, but kind of like, “Whoa, I DID that.” You know, there’s no, there’s no going back. And it’s kind of like, wow, that was, you’re on this weird adrenaline high and then the next day it’s kind of like, well, you know, I don’t have regrets, but it’s, it is a little, it’s just a vulnerable experience. And every time I do that, that piece, I feel it, but then at the same time it’s like I wouldn’t do anything differently. I wouldn’t say anything else. So it’s just being, being in tune, and self-empowered and just holding to that no matter what doubts might creep in as it always does for us humans.

CC:                                     09:34                   Artists, in particular. So how do you find venues for this work? I mean, do you submit videos, are there discussions, or do you tend to find venues that are politically aligned with you? Or would it be interesting to you to find a venue or a town where you know there’d be pushback? Is that a goal of yours – are you kind of trying to broaden your base of support rather than educate or try to flip some people into seeing it from a different perspective? Which, I know, would be a wonderful goal, but I don’t know how open Americans are right now to that type of transition.

AMcQ:                               10:10                   Yeah. And I think that’s the real question. We’ve had a lot of talk about, you know, how can we share this work with, with a broader audience. You know, it’s one of those like “how much change can we make if we’re just saying the same message to people who agree with us,” you know? But then at the same time it’s like how would a very conservative Trump supporter… You know, them watching the show, it’s not going to change their mind. It’s most likely, again, assumptions here, most likely just going to piss them off. Right? So it is sort of that, there is that, that question I’m still grappling with that is “how can I reach another audience without alienating them from the beginning?” You know? And so we’ve, we’ve done, you know, like RAD Fest, we’ve applied to a couple of different festivals. Saint Louis, the venue that we performed at was, a venue I’d performed at before when I was living in the city. Um, and so I knew Tom Brady, the guy in charge and we knew the space and so it was one of those – we tried to try to reach out as much as we could and Tom did as well to just random people in the community trying to get a more, a more diverse audience experience. But then it’s, you know, you see the summary of what the work is and the people are going to flock to that if they pretty much, if they agree with it. So that’s, that’s definitely something I’m trying to figure out and trying to, trying to find an answer to.

CC:                                     11:30                   I mean, it’s a hard one to answer because you don’t know until you try. You know, the “Echo Chamber” is wonderful and supportive, but sometimes I feel like it lends us this false sense of support. I think that’s why Trump’s presidency was so, it was just crushing to a lot of people because we thought we’d made so much progress, right? Not just as Democrats or whatever, but as women and as humans. I thought we’d gotten a lot further. And then to realize that there is this volatile nature to, still, to like half of America is really terrifying. I’m just trying to imagine you going into like a, a theater in Mississippi or something and I have no idea what would happen.

AMcQ:                               12:15                   Yeah, exactly. And there’s really no way to know until we try. And then on that note, it’s really a matter of, you know, what, what organization, if we were to apply for these, you know, for other festivals, and they don’t, they don’t take us, you know, that’s clearly…if there were just hypothetically a more conservative festival and we wanted to get in there, we probably wouldn’t be accepted on the forefront just because of what the piece is. So it’s, yeah, it’s ‘how do you infiltrate these new communities and just let your voice be heard.’ I mean, I would love, I’m from Alabama. I would love to take this piece to Alabama and have it be seen. And you know, it’s knowing my former community, I know that, you know, a lot of the people who would enjoy the piece would ENJOY the piece.

AMcQ:                               13:03                   But then there’s a lot of other people from my past and from my world who would be extremely offended. And in the end it would just end up causing a lot of, you know, disconnect, which again, is the point: we want to talk about that disconnect. But I think every community is so different and there’s really no way to analyze how it would go until we just show up and have these conversations. I think in the end it’s all about just how can we make a space for these conversations and use dance as sort of that in-between space. Um, and I don’t know, that’s, that’s the question of the hour. Of the year.

CC:                                     13:43                   When I spoke to Christopher Roman, he kind of said the same thing. Like, “how do we make this space?” And his take away, the nut, was “just make the damn work.” Find a place to show it and just make it. If you make it, you’ll find a place to show it. Even if five people come, that’s still five more people than saw your work before. Are you thinking of putting this piece in particular on video, like on the internet or showcasing it that way or do you like to keep it live? I mean, live, there’s no way to compare the live experience of being in the room with you and your company during this piece. It was so charged. It’s so powerful. I just, I love it. I feel like the weirdest fan girl because it’s such a cool piece. I mean, are there other mediums you’re playing with to sort of reach a broader audience that can’t see you live?

AMcQ:                               14:32                   Yeah, we’re looking into starting a series called Smashing News, like a, a video series that hopefully we’re going to start playing with a little bit this month and kind of see if we can do like one a month. The initial idea was like a live feed, like just dialogue, and then going into a sort of movement research situation where we can just have, you know, dancers invite outside community members into a room and talk about, you know, one specific topic and then how can that manifest in sort of an improvisational space, you know, just to, to get the words into the body. How can we sort of use that as a tool? And then the end product would be, or I don’t want to say product, but the end, you know, sort of culminating event would be, you know, we would film the process and then edit it into like a minute and a half or two minute little video that we can share and just, just to sort of share the process or the dialogue, et cetera, et cetera. So this idea, it’s very much in, it’s in flux. Toying with it as a live feed, you know, that puts such an exorbitant amount of pressure on, you know, on the group, on the process… Um, so anyway, we’re trying to create some kind of a, a sharable, um, little summary of the work that we’re doing that’s outside of my thesis piece or For Which it Stands. I think with those works as much as I would love to, you know, have a, a compact little version of it that we can share with the world and people can get out and see it, you know, for free. And it’s not chained to the, the financial burden of taking the show on tour, but at the same time, I really think that I’m, I’m with you. I think that it’s just such a different experience live and to have the audience feed us as performers and for us to feed the audience in that, in that kind of aggressive way. I think that on film it’s lost. And so, especially for the thesis work, I think that needs to live in a real time space. Um, and I think that’s what’s so special about it. And what’s so special about, you know, live dance as an art form in general is just that it’s in that fleeting moment and it’s with the people who happen to be sitting there that day and that second, that minute and, you can’t re-create it. And so I think that’s, that’s the special thing that I want to try to keep intact, I guess.

CC:                                     17:03                   No, it is very special. And as the creator, it’s yours. I know once you perform it, it’s the audience’s as well, but it’s yours. I mean, did you intend to end up as, an activist this way – through your dance – or was it kind of an accidental intersection?

AMcQ:                               17:23                   I’ve always been a pretty passionate person. You know I’m from Alabama, my parents are not from there – Dad’s from Illinois and Mom’s from Memphis. My Dad got a job at the Southern Poverty Law Center and he told me, “I want, I want to move to Alabama” and we were living in a small town in Wisconsin at the time and he’s like, “I want you all to meet, I want to take you to a community that’s not just white people.” We were from, again, a REALLY small town and, you know, he’s like, “I want you to experience life. I want you to have these kinds of conversations and this is, you know, this is how I want you to grow up.”

AMcQ:                               18:03                   And so, I mean, I was really grateful that we moved and that I had these friendships with people of color and people of different backgrounds. And, um, so it was, you know, growing up in that way. And they were very…. We’d talk about abortion. We would talk about, you know, gay rights, all this was very much on the ballot politically. And I remember having fights at the lunch table about how gay people should be allowed to go to church. And, you know, I was like, ‘but why not?’ You know? I mean, I remember being in fourth grade and having these fights with random kids in class. And I always just felt very passionately like, “why? Why is it not equal?” You know? And I just didn’t understand. My parents and I would have conversations about this all the time.

AMcQ:                               18:46                   And so I think it just took me a long time to get out of the structure of what dance was and to really see that dance, in the real world, dance and activism. It’s all so linked. And when we take ourselves out of these little boxes, and technique, (and not that technique is bad,) but to take it out of this little box of what a dance “should” be and what a tendu “should look like.” How can we fuse? Because in the end, the people doing this, like, we are PEOPLE. The dancers doing this dance, we’re all humans with experiences and with backgrounds and with relationships. And, you know, it’s just so important that we try to find that, that link, you know, and to acknowledge that link between reality and performance.

AMcQ:                               19:27                   And, so I think in the end, I’ve, I’ve always been a very politically active performer. I just didn’t realize it until honestly a few years ago when Hollins Master’s program really gave me the tools and the open mind to see it in a new way. And then looking back on work I’ve done before, it’s like, ‘ooohhhh, you know, I see these little, these little things that peek out and you know, what I was going through at the time are these little political little bites of, of stuff that’s just infused within the choreography.” And it’s like I see it, I just didn’t know that it was happening at the time – I was just expressing myself, you know, making a dance you know, um, so it’s just, yeah. So, long story short, I think it’s, I think they’re very much linked,

CC:                                     20:12                   Inextricably linked. And your dad was an artist, too. I didn’t know that he worked for Southern Poverty Law Center. That’s, that makes so much more sense as to why you would follow this path. Also, what an awesome guy. He raised an awesome daughter.

AMcQ:                               20:26                   Yeah. I mean just, you know, may you rest in peace, Bob. Um, you know, he was a lot of the reason why, I mean obviously 50% of who I am but why I have “the balls.” I think he was, he was always just like, ‘just do it,’ you know, and he was a writer and a blacksmith and a, craftsman and a photographer; he taught me iMovie, taught me GarageBand, you know, I mean, he was just a really cool dude. Um, so I’m really, I’m grateful for him.

CC:                                     20:59                   I had a question come up…Oh! Talk to me about, um, Smashworks advocacy. I know you just launched that after this past summer and how is that going? Was that just kind of, again, the “Hollins Effect”, realizing how much we can actually do with our time? Or was it that you wanted to make more of a material difference as well as an artistic and expressive difference in your community?

AMcQ:                               21:26                   You know, honestly, it was a combo of both. And just luck. I met this, this woman Ana LeJava. She and I went to Birmingham southern together about seven or eight years ago. So we met in Alabama, she’s originally from Georgia, (the country) and came for school at Birmingham Southern and then stayed and worked in the UN for a while in New York. And so we reconnected, you know, seven years later and here we are. And she saw For Which it Stands when we premiered in Brooklyn last spring. So we’ve been trying to connect and then, you know, I’m away for two months for school. And so we finally got a meeting when I came back and she was like, ‘you know, I’ve been dying to start some kind of an advocacy branch linked to dance. Just I just haven’t had, I haven’t found the right company; I don’t want to start a dance company just to do this kind of work.’

AMcQ:                               22:15                   She’s like, ‘I’m really interested in the political activism.’ And, um, she’s like, you know, ‘I saw your company perform and it just seems like the perfect fit.’ And so, you know, we met a lot and I was like, this is great. You know, I came home from school and was like, I don’t have any of the tools, you know, it’s like, I know how to make dance, I know how to make political work, but you know, I don’t have a strictly political background. And so it was, it was just this sort of weird, serendipitous meeting. So we’re like, ‘let’s do it.’ So we’ve been launching Smashworks Advocacy and it’s, again, it’s still, we have all these plans and Ana and I are both very similar in that we have all these ideas and it’s like, oh, we got to hone it in and, you know, um, start small.

AMcQ:                               22:59                   But, so we’re, we’re launching and Smashing News is kind of just one little snippet of, um, of our goals for the year, but starting an education outreach program, as well as trying to link up with different community organizations in New York and how can we, you know, start these open dialogues? How can we volunteer our time, how can we teach workshops and empower young girls? Um, how can we, you know, come out and do a pop-up, site-specific performance? So it’s, again, we have a lot of, a lot of goals, and we’re just slowly but surely, you know, applying for grants, hopefully moving. Our goal is to move towards full nonprofit status within the next year and a half. Just with a lot of the grants, that’s, you know, number one priority is to have that full status. So, Ana been a huge asset in that way.

AMcQ:                               23:51                   We’ve also brought on Kiva Carmen Frank as an intern. She’s someone I met in Milwaukee. She’s, so, it’s just the youth. Oh my God, she’s the next generation, you know, she’s a freshman. And she was just, we’re both like, ‘oh my God, the children!’ Um, it’s so, it’s so liberating, so exciting.

CC:                                     24:09                   And the energy they have, they have so much more energy!

New Speaker:                  24:14                   She’s at, you know, a different march or something every day. I mean, she’s, so, I love that. But so we have this little team and you know, we’re slowly just building, um, all these ideas and just trying to link again, you know, from ‘how do we take the performance site and you know, this community action and like how do we build that bridge.’ And so that’s sort of where we are right now is building that bridge. I’m hopefully trying to make it make it happen and actually see real change or you know, have real interaction with the community outside of just like, “wow, great show.” You know, that’s kind of our goal.

CC:                                     24:51                   It’s a good one. I’m excited to see where that goes. I think it’s, we need more of that and that’s exactly what I think the next wave of dancers are going to be doing. Before I got to Hollins, I didn’t know what to expect, first of all, and I first just wanted my Masters so I could get back into the dance world. But then realizing how much work there is to do. And how much wrong there is to right. And I keep on thinking about what you said earlier: It all comes back to fear. And I don’t…the reason I started this podcast was, one, I’ve always wanted to, but I was too afraid to because I hate the way my voice sounds or I don’t think I have anything to say. But also there’re so many things that I care about and that I want to change, and that piss me off, and I have no idea where to start. So I thought this was one place to start. At least by talking to people who are, who’ve tried and who just stopped giving a shit and started putting their work out there because it has to be said or it has to be done. And we all have to make the change together as a community. So one by one, and you’re making a huge contribution in “dance-meets-advocacy-meets-political activism.” So I hope you recognize that. I know you’re just in your day-to-day doing your work, but what you’re doing is really, really important work and really important ART. And I hope you know that.

AMcQ:                               26:08                   Thank you. Thank you.

CC:                                     26:10                   Of course. And so my last question on like my predetermined bullet-point list was: words of wisdom for the fledgling or accidental activists like me who really wants to do something to make a difference? Anybody who might be listening, like how would you advise them on building a coalition or small team, or creating that safe space? Or just creating the safe space to perform the work that they know needs to be performed. How do you, how. What’s your HOW. Is there a “how?”

AMcQ:                               26:45                   Absolutely. I mean, there’s so many things, but in a nutshell, just educate yourself, you know, read, stay open, get feedback from opposite viewpoints, show your work. Like we showed a little excerpt to, you know, a dancer-who-shall-not-be-named’s husband, who is a Trump supporter. And, and like getting, getting his point of view of like, what are you seeing, you know, outside of just our little rose colored dance colored glasses, you know, how he, how can we get feedback. What are other people seeing? So just being educated and trying to see your work and see what you’re doing from all viewpoints. Don’t be afraid to take risk. In the end. It’s just go, you know, if you feel educated, that’s what I would say. Or at least like you feel that you’ve done the research, you’ve done the work, then give yourself the permission to take the risk.

AMcQ:                               27:37                   And just know that it takes a village, also. We can’t do everything by ourselves. So find that team that you feel comfortable with and you feel supported by. If you’re inspired by someone, you reach out to them, get their feedback, get their advice, have a collaboration, have a coffee. Um, you know, it’s, it’s so important to not feel alone in this kind of work, because it can drive you crazy I think if, if you feel alone in it . And, and just stay passionate. I think too, you know, if you lose the passion, just question WHY, you know, it’s, we all want to do this work because we feel passionate and just try to try to harness it. It can, it can beat you down. And this, you know, this kind of activist work, it can feel like you’re sinking in the sand, you know, sinking sand. Um, but just be, just stay passionate, and keep trying to reinvent and reignite the fire.

CC:                                     28:35                   Right. Cause we could do the same piece over and over, but it’s always different depending on the day, depending on the mood, depending on any number of things. It’s always a reinvention. Every single performance. That’s a good nugget. I’m going to steal that one. Wow. Well thank you so much Ashley. You’re, again, You’re freaking awesome. I love the work you’re doing. I can’t wait to see what you do in addition to like the amazing stuff you’ve already done. It’s just…you’re a very exciting artist to watch.

CC:                                     29:04                   Thank you for listening to BodyPolitic, the podcast at the intersection of performing arts and political activism. I’m your host, Courtney Collado. Please join us next time for episode four with Raymond Rodriguez, who is the head of the Studio Company and Trainee Program at the Joffrey Ballet. He has a lot to say about ageism in dance and he’s working his butt off to train the next generation of dancers to have and exercise their agency as individuals.

RR:                                     29:31                   To let them know that they do have a voice and we are all in this together. I tell them all the time, I’m learning from you as well. You’re learning from me and I’m learning from you.

CC:                                     29:44                   Thank you again to you, the listeners, to Ashley Mcqueen, to Hollins University, and to our sponsor Byron Green. Music credits go to incompetech.com and composer Kevin McCleod.